Heláin

[sasasha]

@sasasha thank you so much! That is all really helpful! I updated that page (here) with a stripped-down script, which looks (I think) pretty cool in its own way and a lot more balanced/cohesive/something... on the whole I'm pretty happy with this.

That’s great that you’ve found something you’re happier with! I like it too. I think, as well, that from this seed you can more easily make a hand with the vibe of your earlier examples, and it should hang together better.

[sasasha]

So, (1) could you boil the script down to even more fundamental elements? From this, you can develop different hands that all have their own individual aesthetic.

On reflection I’d like to add a qualifier to this, which is that the distinction between different scripts and different hands is not necessarily a clear one.

Yeah, I agree. It’s little a bit like dialect/language, I guess. Or, for another equally imperfect analogy, hands are like different registers.

[bradrn]

It’s little a bit like dialect/language, I guess.

This exact thought suddenly came to me just now and I opened this thread to post it, only to discover that you got there first. Ah well.

[Leilis]

I didn't like my new <n>, and after thinking more, I realised it was the only glyph besides <o> (and <oi>) that has a fully-enclosed space. I might shorten the crossbar so it's only crossing one leg. 'No loops' is a rule of the old calligraphic hand (except for the triangular spaces in all three nasals).

I don't know if <o> (and <oi>) should be an exception, or if it should be reworked as well. I don't really like it but it seems as if the only quite rounded vowel needs a round-ish shape.

[bradrn]

The script is meant to be written with a brush

This intrigued me sufficiently that I went and bought a fudepen (which I’ve been meaning to do for some time anyway), and have been experimenting with this script since then. It’s not that hard to write with a brush, but the result looks nothing like the style you wrote in — and on reflection, there are an awful lot of sharp corners for a brush-written script. On the other hand, using a broad-edged pen produces a much more satisfactory result.

EDIT: Also a lot of up-and-left strokes, which are difficult to write with a brush, and conspicuously absent from e.g. hiragana or brush-written Mongolian.

[Leilis]

The script is meant to be written with a brush

This intrigued me sufficiently that I went and bought a fudepen (which I’ve been meaning to do for some time anyway), and have been experimenting with this script since then. It’s not that hard to write with a brush, but the result looks nothing like the style you wrote in — and on reflection, there are an awful lot of sharp corners for a brush-written script. On the other hand, using a broad-edged pen produces a much more satisfactory result.

EDIT: Also a lot of up-and-left strokes, which are difficult to write with a brush, and conspicuously absent from e.g. hiragana or brush-written Mongolian.

I admit I haven't worked on it with proper brushes for at least a decade! (Sadly, my box of Chinese calligraphy supplies went missing and turned up in a relative's damp basement, everything destroyed by mildew.) Now that I've tested it, a broad-edged pen does look much better. I'm not sure why I'd thought that didn't work well in the past.

I'm also playing with different stroke directions/orders -- I'd been trying to write some of the letters in as few strokes as possible, but I'm finding it's often faster (and nicer-looking) to lift the pen and go left-to-right and top-to-bottom.

The new 'print' hand has stayed mostly as I had it last week. From there, I've worked back in the direction of my older 'hand', trying to make sure the aesthetic elements don't overwhelm the functional elements. I think it's looking a lot better! I'll try to make a new sample page in the next few days.

[bradrn]

(Sadly, my box of Chinese calligraphy supplies went missing and turned up in a relative's damp basement, everything destroyed by mildew.)

Oh, what a pity…! I never have used proper writing brushes myself.

The new 'print' hand has stayed mostly as I had it last week. From there, I've worked back in the direction of my older 'hand', trying to make sure the aesthetic elements don't overwhelm the functional elements. I think it's looking a lot better! I'll try to make a new sample page in the next few days.

I look forward to seeing it!

[Leilis]

I've updated the page with examples (here). I think I need a third form of <r> that will flow more smoothly into a following plosive or fricative (e.g. last word <annimirtha>). Also <l> before <f> or <v> looks awkward (e.g. line one word three <e-lf'>).

[bradrn]

I've updated the page with examples (here). I think I need a third form of <r> that will flow more smoothly into a following plosive or fricative (e.g. last word <annimirtha>). Also <l> before <f> or <v> looks awkward (e.g. line one word three <e-lf'>).

Very nice! You have a nice Latin italic hand too.

For ⟨r⟩ before plosives or fricatives I would suggest keeping the original rounded form with the tail fitting under the body of the next letter. As for ⟨lf⟩, I also experienced problems when trying with brushes — I think there’s simply not a lot that can be done with it beyond how you wrote it.

[Leilis]

I think for <lf> and <lv>, a miniature form of <l> (with a tiny diagonal bend at the baseline and no descender) looks much better. The other option for <r> before other consonants would be a similar mini-<r>, like a dotless italic i.

Also keeping in mind @sasasha's advice, I am playing with letter-width -- for the word <e-lv'> specifically (line one word three), giving the <eh> a much longer 'scoop' before it comes up to touch a mini <l> makes the word look quite different and (I think) lovely. (It's a weird word because it's really two words elided, e elva, so it gets a normally-word-final <eh> at the beginning. Not only that, it comes before an a-, so the other end elides, too -- e 'lv' adhaid!)

[bradrn]

(It's a weird word because it's really two words elided, e elva, so it gets a normally-word-final <eh> at the beginning. Not only that, it comes before an a-, so the other end elides, too -- e 'lv' adhaid!)

Ah, I was wondering what that ⟨lv⟩ was about!

[sasasha]

I've updated the page with examples (here). I think I need a third form of <r> that will flow more smoothly into a following plosive or fricative (e.g. last word <annimirtha>). Also <l> before <f> or <v> looks awkward (e.g. line one word three <e-lf'>).

I haven't looked yet at your further thoughts in later posts, but I am really pleased for you, as I think this is such a successful retouch. It looks great!

I think what you did with ⟨o⟩ was particularly smart. The original form was an unusual and distinctive shape... But I was stopping short of delving into why it’s unusual. (I think it’s not particularly easy to write cleanly on a small scale, especially with a brush, or a wider nib.) Not only does the change write better, but I think it harmonises better on the page; and it’s still a combination of ⟨a⟩ and ⟨u⟩.

The combined vowel strokes work, too, and contrast interestingly with the vowel-first writing direction involved in the standalone/carrier letters.

This script now feels to me much better matched to your beautiful language and poetry.

[Leilis]

@sasasha thank you! your advice helped a lot! (:

I keep tweaking the nasals -- I really like the leftward 'swashes' in isolation, but they start to look a little cluttered when a word has more than one. Maybe the 'swashy' nasals can be reserved for the beginning of a word, and I'll come up with a simpler version for other positions.

[Leilis]

I need more poetry for practicing my revised script. I've got one good line for a hymn that's very different from the last hymn ...

linn a beth inaiyeor' allos ad, filtahwenna.
be.heard.IMP ABS.PL people law-ABS.PL god-GEN.M strong, prophecy-ABS.PL
Hear, O people, the mighty god's Laws, the prophecies.

... but everything I've tried after it just seems dull and awkward. It was meant to be a versification of bits from Heláin-speakers' chief religious text, the Sacred Laws. This couplet is okay, not great:

ñunt mur' al thulcemet, ancalla, anda f'eis im:
cal tethoi assuivs u cal brenna, terthenorra.

The god, the unsullied, the most pure, has given you land and water;
cleanse foot with clear (water), and cleanse hands, (you) who stand at the gate.

... but looking again, I think the pl. of terthenir 'one standing at a gate' is terthenora, which doesn't fit metrically (Lsss, needs to be LsLs). I'll keep trying.

[Leilis]

... nooooo! lin 'be heard' has one -n, so that doesn't work either.

[bradrn]

I’m afraid I’m not good enough at Heláin or poetry to be of any assistance.

[sasasha]

I need more poetry for practicing my revised script. I've got one good line for a hymn that's very different from the last hymn ...

linn a beth inaiyeor' allos ad, filtahwenna.
be.heard.IMP ABS.PL people law-ABS.PL god-GEN.M strong, prophecy-ABS.PL
Hear, O people, the mighty god's Laws, the prophecies.

... but everything I've tried after it just seems dull and awkward. It was meant to be a versification of bits from Heláin-speakers' chief religious text, the Sacred Laws. This couplet is okay, not great:

ñunt mur' al thulcemet, ancalla, anda f'eis im:
cal tethoi assuivs u cal brenna, terthenorra.

The god, the unsullied, the most pure, has given you land and water;
cleanse foot with clear (water), and cleanse hands, (you) who stand at the gate.

... but looking again, I think the pl. of terthenir 'one standing at a gate' is terthenora, which doesn't fit metrically (Lsss, needs to be LsLs). I'll keep trying.

I wonder if you’re being a bit harsh on yourself; I get that you’re trying to stick to a form, but in many traditions form is just a guideline. Even some forms that we think of as essential to the artwork, e.g. haiku, turn out to be pretty flexible in their native tradition. I would say a poet is unlikely to crucify themselves over mixing up an L and an s here and there.

Something that helps me with Verdurian poetry is ya, the perfect marker which can also reinforce meaning in a non-specific sort of way like ‘indeed’, as it is short and can be somewhat overapplied if it helps form a more euphonious line. Japanese poetics has a class of such morphemes* ‒ known as kireji, one of which is also ya, by chance. Have a look if you haven’t encountered them before.

You could investigate something similar to help you meet metrical targets, if you really think it’s vital to do so.

I think the poetry is pretty and sounds nice.

Is it all sacred, out of interest?

*Something similar, anyway.

[Leilis]

Something that helps me with Verdurian poetry is ya, the perfect marker which can also reinforce meaning in a non-specific sort of way like ‘indeed’, as it is short and can be somewhat overapplied if it helps form a more euphonious line. Japanese poetics has a class of such morphemes* ‒ known as kireji, one of which is also ya, by chance. Have a look if you haven’t encountered them before.

You could investigate something similar to help you meet metrical targets, if you really think it’s vital to do so.

Hmm, yes, I need to find more single-long and single-short adverbs to fill out feet. (:

Is it all sacred, out of interest?

So far, yes! I've made a few notes on colloquial Heláin but my reference grammar is almost entirely focused on liturgical Heláin (which is the conculture's literary and legal language as well). Mainly I have drafts of writings by or about their chief prophet Tersas (Inaiyora 'Sacred Laws' I-III; Tiniaiya 'Last Utterance' or 'Utterance of the End'; and the Letter of Amainta) totalling ~11k words of Heláin text plus English translation (not including notes/glossing). I keep meaning to write snippets of some kind of saga/epic, but I've neither settled on a metre (it would need to be a good deal looser than what I've been doing!) nor worked out quite enough details about historical events/people.

[Leilis]

I've ended up editing prose texts I already have: updating words/forms that I've changed, and catching little errors (turns out hwea 'herb' and hwella 'old [person]' are hard to keep straight). Tiniaiya ('Last Utterance') is done, 774 words of Heláin so maybe too long to post here. Here's a bit.

The high priest and prophet Tersas had a vision of divine justice and wrote the Sacred Laws, the highest law of the Telian Commonwealth (the Telian are Heláin-speakers). He believed that the Laws would bring peace and virtue; instead, he found that people were exploiting loopholes to get away with crimes he hadn't even imagined. He had a mental breakdown of sorts and afterwards wrote the Tiniaiya; however, in his own city, it was considered a forgery (attributed to his grandson).

In ll. 1-15, Tersas describes (though doesn't label) what we might call insolence and arrogance. In ll. 16-31, he summarises his life and how he gave the Laws but failed to preach against insolence and arrogance.

32 beth, lelinnarennen fi erintís hwellora, u hwerél adannora, uc eadán endenithora. 33 u sesarren e’naiyeclerthora naire, arciste naires, sesarc e denedenora an-coráv inaiyora ev’es. 34 rerennus av toran thulcoran cleas fi niroran vamas. 35 u sesarc e coráv tora naires t’ellu, eristellen inaiyora age f’ annoi f’ umferre.

36 tul erecellen cusenadeni soéc, uc eristannen son seion, u fefinnen fi tetalthennen s’arfrei, earfarc av s’alle sor. 37 geganten so veirosca, uc eammorren so umbethinis illu. 38 avannis illu, memedena so hweid thedas u gegledena rosei anda sor, eamena so culis il u tetesena lose soles el sor, eannus so unne u cecelena pare sor una. 39 teán son hwaréiv, unaiare f’ ariemmete, erindanc av so al.

32 As for the people, the old had rejoiced to hear and went to their rest (lit. ‘began to rest’), and the strong grew old, and [their] offspring grew strong. 33 And the Law-born ones worked evil, worse than the evil which their fathers’ fathers worked before the Laws. 34 For they made themselves glad [by] befouling what was clean (lit. ‘cleanliness’) and rending [what was] whole. 35 And after they had wrought their evil, [they] took up the Laws [as] shield and weapon, not [as their] commander.

36 Then [my] heart’s strength was taken from me, and I went up [to worship] alone, and I saw and understood my disobedience, that I had disobeyed my god (or ‘understood [their] disobedience of me, for I had ...’). 37 Madness seized me, and I fled into the wilderness. 38 For a year, I ate the herbs of the forest and drank the dew of the earth, I slept in a cave and laid [my] head on a stone, I walked naked (or ‘unarmed’) and did not wash [my] body. 39 I was like a beast, speechless and without understanding, for the god had cast me down.

ll. 40-53 are mostly about a dream that he had, about a kind of resurrection and purification of his people, and his subsequent recovery from insanity.

[sasasha]

Not much to comment but this is beautiful euphonious prose and I like that you have baked textual ambiguity into it for your conpeople to quibble over in translation. It's a long in-world text, too; with your poetry included it would be interesting to see such a large compendium of in-world religious text in a conlang.