Elections in various countries

[bradrn]

the more loony-tunes types believe that that food also has to be raw fruit -- heads of lettuce feel pain too

I don’t believe I have ever encountered this in earnest.

and that is ignoring the potential pain you will be causing by bringing a child into the world which could have been avoided by not doing so

This particular trope is usually associated with utilitarianism, and in particular the Rationalists, a group which the far-left seem to loathe.

[Travis B.]

the more loony-tunes types believe that that food also has to be raw fruit -- heads of lettuce feel pain too

I don’t believe I have ever encountered this in earnest.

I have actually encountered this -- but for the most part vegans are quick to denounce the idea that plants feel pain.

and that is ignoring the potential pain you will be causing by bringing a child into the world which could have been avoided by not doing so

This particular trope is usually associated with utilitarianism, and in particular the Rationalists, a group which the far-left seem to loathe.

That is generally true, even though I have seen such antinatalism from other people with the general theme that life sucks and is full of pain so it is immoral to create more life.

[malloc]

Nah, that's the relatively reasonable kind of leftists. The more out-there kind seems to think that the way to go is to destroy the means of production. Just smash everything. Burn it all down. Once we've burned down everything connected to making the food people eat, the buildings and furniture people sleep in, the clothes people wear, and the medical care people get when they're ill, certainly everyone will live happily ever after.

Indeed. It feels like many people confuse anti-capitalism with anti-modernity and many leftists I have known seem downright nostalgic for the stone age or hostile toward Enlightenment philosophy. Obviously the modern world has much to criticize and I have often criticized recent technological innovations myself. Nonetheless it does seem like many leftists are close to raising the reactionary slogan "reject modernity, embrace tradition".

[Travis B.]

Nah, that's the relatively reasonable kind of leftists. The more out-there kind seems to think that the way to go is to destroy the means of production. Just smash everything. Burn it all down. Once we've burned down everything connected to making the food people eat, the buildings and furniture people sleep in, the clothes people wear, and the medical care people get when they're ill, certainly everyone will live happily ever after.

Indeed. It feels like many people confuse anti-capitalism with anti-modernity and many leftists I have known seem downright nostalgic for the stone age or hostile toward Enlightenment philosophy. Obviously the modern world has much to criticize and I have often criticized recent technological innovations myself. Nonetheless it does seem like many leftists are close to raising the reactionary slogan "reject modernity, embrace tradition".

It's as if those leftists view pre-capitalist society as some kind of utopia. They forget what Marx said about capitalism being an improvement on what came before it.

[Ares Land]

Maybe use 'left-wingers' instead?
You guys seem to be using the historical, Leninist, "infantile disorder of communism" definition

[WeepingElf]

Another point is that many leftists communicate wrongly. They talk about the problems very much, but hardly about the solutions.

I thought the leftist solution to everything is seizing the means of production, or a working-class revolution, or something similar? Well, for more radical values of "leftist", maybe. And don't forget that what many leftists hate most is other leftists, and what they like most is catching out other leftists in ideological purity tests, neither of which is conducive to good communication.

Of course, there are such leftists (and they claim to be the only true leftists, while those who actually try to do something about the crisis are to them "centrists" or even "social fascists") - who don't actually do anything but discuss the classics, because they think a working-class right now would be doomed to fail since there was "no revolutionary situation" at hand. Those of course do not contribute anything to a solution of the current crisis, and are superfluous.

[Travis B.]

Another point is that many leftists communicate wrongly. They talk about the problems very much, but hardly about the solutions.

I thought the leftist solution to everything is seizing the means of production, or a working-class revolution, or something similar? Well, for more radical values of "leftist", maybe. And don't forget that what many leftists hate most is other leftists, and what they like most is catching out other leftists in ideological purity tests, neither of which is conducive to good communication.

Of course, there are such leftists (and they claim to be the only true leftists, while those who actually try to do something about the crisis are to them "centrists" or even "social fascists") - who don't actually do anything but discuss the classics, because they think a working-class right now would be doomed to fail since there was "no revolutionary situation" at hand. Those of course do not contribute anything to a solution of the current crisis, and are superfluous.

And then there are those leftists who think that doing anything to improve the present is bad, because it will put off Teh Revolución by making the population less miserable and thus less inclined to revolutionary change.

[Ares Land]

Where do you guys even find those people ?

Marx knows I've encountered some annoying opinions, but nothing quite as bad as the examples given here.

[WeepingElf]

I thought the leftist solution to everything is seizing the means of production, or a working-class revolution, or something similar? Well, for more radical values of "leftist", maybe. And don't forget that what many leftists hate most is other leftists, and what they like most is catching out other leftists in ideological purity tests, neither of which is conducive to good communication.

Of course, there are such leftists (and they claim to be the only true leftists, while those who actually try to do something about the crisis are to them "centrists" or even "social fascists") - who don't actually do anything but discuss the classics, because they think a working-class right now would be doomed to fail since there was "no revolutionary situation" at hand. Those of course do not contribute anything to a solution of the current crisis, and are superfluous.

And then there are those leftists who think that doing anything to improve the present is bad, because it will put off Teh Revolución by making the population less miserable and thus less inclined to revolutionary change.

Right, and these are mostly the same people; and it is part of the reason why I prefer classifying my political viewpoint as progressive rather than leftist - another reason is that "The Left" (Die Linke) is, in Germany, the name of a particular leftist party which I am not affiliated with. I just hate this silly talk about all the problems from fascism to climate change as "secondary contradictions" that can't be resolved without resolving the "main contradiction" between labour and capital, but will resolve themselves once the "main contradiction" is resolved. Nonsense!

[alice]

Where do you guys even find those people ?

Marx knows I've encountered some annoying opinions, but nothing quite as bad as the examples given here.

How about "The left should defend riots and looting in France"?

[malloc]

It's as if those leftists view pre-capitalist society as some kind of utopia. They forget what Marx said about capitalism being an improvement on what came before it.

Indeed. The whole concept of progress has really lost momentum these days. It feels like everyone is either defending the status quo of liberalism or pining for some past golden age like classical antiquity or pre-colonial indigenous societies.

[zompist]

And then there are those leftists who think that doing anything to improve the present is bad, because it will put off Teh Revolución by making the population less miserable and thus less inclined to revolutionary change.

That was perhaps the hot position in 1875— it's in Kropotkin.

But miserable people don't rebel. (Or more accurately, not in any way that changes things.)