Conlang Random Thread

[Qwynegold]

I'm working on this aux/engelang, and I'm trying to decide on some consonant sequences, if they should be allowed or not. This is what I've got so far:

mt > nt
mc > nc
np > mp
nk > gk
nw > gw

<g> stands for /ŋ/ here, and <c> for /tʃ/. The above means that the sequences to the left are disallowed, and turned into the sequences on the right if I borrow a word with a disallowed sequence. So for example Kamchatka would turn out as Kancatka. But I'm still undecided about the following:

mn
nm, nf
gm, gn, gp, gt, gc

How many people around the world do you think would have trouble with the above sequences (in intervocalic position)? Is there any way to guesstimate this?

[Pabappa]

I think if /n/ assimilates for place, an eng almost certainly will too. For me, in conlangs anyway, /nf/ implies either /ntf/ or /npf/, so that would also assimilate, but not every language does this ....in some, /n/ before fricatives might just be a weak nasal approximant rather than a proper nasal stop.

[Qwynegold]

Aha, English speakers tend to insert random plosives here and there. And in Japanese it would just be realized as nasalization on the previous vowel. Okay, thanks!

What about nasals preceding other nasals, though?

[Pabappa]

Polish has nasal approximants appearing before fricatives as well ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_ph ... #Allophony .... and the historical nasal vowels seem to have merged with the historical sequences, so the sound change operated in both directions/.

i read in an old dictionary once that German sanft, etc had nasal vowels, and that these were only before fricatives (and maybe only before fricative + stop? ... i dont remember) but it doesnt seem to be standard.

[Qwynegold]

Okay, thanks! I've gotten some ideas now on how to do things.

[masako]

napanu gelu: bimushekra ya kadinnai
hear-1sg-3sg.ANIM come-3sg.ANIM | DAT-withdraw-INF VOC lead-AG-1sg.GEN
I hear him coming: let's withdraw, my lord.

aharwa lai batedesha
face-ACC 3sg.GEN fear-CAUS-PST-3sg.INAM
He had a scary face.

hetim biqesbuwa kesh parurum
tree-PL DAT-week-ACC few bloom-TENT-3pl
The trees will flower in a few weeks.

shawemti kamatú?
finish-Q-2sg book-ACC
Have you finished the book?

eshwa kita urhim shúmunum
house-ACC be.old-3sg.INAM spirit-PL haunt-REPO-3pl
They say that ghosts haunt the old house.

kudanla biqar giyek yilanimwa giyeshan ara kayaban sayedaqin
be.able-1sg-NEG DAT-time wear-INF clothing-work-PL-ACC wear-PST-1sg time COP-DUR-1sg office-AG
I can no longer wear the clothes that I used to wear when I was an office worker.

ya dikha bikeshimwa yanak
VOC care-COM DAT-person-PL-ACC suspect-COM
Be careful with suspicious people.

guledimwa gimirai habtunum
comedy-PL-ACC TV-GEN be.popular-3pl
Comedy TV shows are popular.

kuwebti ki bisinwa gashti
expel-PASS -2sg if DAT-exam-ACC cheat-2sg
If you cheat on an exam, you will be expelled.

iyib kuluran bidura ishá urrek watú bishaleda
again fail-TENT-1sg DAT-score maybe repeat-INF year-ACC DAT-school
If I get a failing score again, I might have to repeat a year in school.


----
Just stretching my Amal legs, trying to build vocab and fine-tune the grammar.

[Moose-tache]

I'm working on this aux/engelang, and I'm trying to decide on some consonant sequences, if they should be allowed or not.

Korean might be a handy model here.

In Korean, /n/ assimilates, but /m/ and /N/ (generally) do not. This means that clusters like -mn- are allowed, but -nm- would just be -mm-. In other words, your nasals don't all have to assimilate to the same degree. The coronal nasal may be "weaker" than labial or velar ones. You can also have different ammounts of assimilation depending on the following consonant. In Korean /nk/, the /n/ assimilates by place of articulation, but remains a nasal. In a cluster like /nl/, however, it will assimilate even further to /ll/.

[masako]

enon tsakum mue sahi moku
/ɛːnon t͡saːkum mʷe saːɦi moːku/
be.angry-ADV idea-PL without color sleep
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

Could also be "enohan" for "very angry ~ furious" and "sahimue" indicating the abessive rather than a preposition.

[Ryan of Tinellb]

eshwa kita urhim shúmunum
house-ACC be.old-3sg.INAM spirit-PL haunt-REPO-3pl
They say that ghosts haunt the old house.

Actually, in Commonwealth countries, it's pronounced shúmunium. ^{Sorry, this is meant to be a joke on the pronunciation of aluminium / aluminum in different English dialects.}

[masako]

Actually, in Commonwealth countries, it's pronounced shúmunium.

I lolled.

[Ryan of Tinellb]

In my grammar write-up, I want to distinguish between derivational suffixes that change word class and those that don't, similar to but distinct from the derivational/inflectional dichotomy. So I'm looking for nice little labels. Would transclass(ic) / cisclass(ic) work, if I gave an explanation? Or can you think of something better? Thanks.

[Ryan of Tinellb]

hetim biqesbuwa kesh parurum
tree-PL DAT-week-ACC few bloom-TENT-3pl
The trees will flower in a few weeks.

kuwebti ki bisinwa gashti
expel-PASS -2sg if DAT-exam-ACC cheat-2sg
If you cheat on an exam, you will be expelled.

What does the double dative-accusative marking signify?

kudanla biqar giyek yilanimwa giyeshan ara kayaban sayedaqin
be.able-1sg-NEG DAT-time wear-INF clothing-work-PL-ACC wear-PST-1sg time COP-DUR-1sg office-AG
I can no longer wear the clothes that I used to wear when I was an office worker.

Hmm. I almost want a syntax tree to help me get my head around this one. Correct me if I'm wrong:

• The main verb of the sentence is giyeshan.
• biqar giyek yilanimwa giyeshan forms a noun phrase.
• ara kayaban sayedaqin is also a noun phrase that's acting as an adverbial of time.
• Noun phrases are head-initial.

ya dikha bikeshimwa yanak
VOC care-COM DAT-person-PL-ACC suspect-COM
Be careful with suspicious people.

Until I saw that COM also made adverbs, and was not just a case-marker for nouns, I couldn't work out where the verb was. Is it dropped, and thus both adverbs here are kind of acting as verbs in the absence of a copula?

Amal is phonologically inspired by Semitic languages.

I'm guessing not Arabic, with Amal's presence of /p/ and absence of /ħʕɣq/. Hebrew? Or am I way wrong?

[akam chinjir]

In my grammar write-up, I want to distinguish between derivational suffixes that change word class and those that don't, similar to but distinct from the derivational/inflectional dichotomy. So I'm looking for nice little labels. Would transclass(ic) / cisclass(ic) work, if I gave an explanation? Or can you think of something better? Thanks.

"Word-class-changing derivations" is the main expression I've seen, I think. Admittedly, "non-word-class-changing" is starting to get a bit heavy.

[Pabappa]

Could you call the ones that do change "classifiers" ?

[Zaarin]

Amal is phonologically inspired by Semitic languages.

I'm guessing not Arabic, with Amal's presence of /p/ and absence of /ħʕɣq/. Hebrew? Or am I way wrong?

Biblical Hebrew had all of /p ħ ʕ kʼ/--and [ɣ] counting begadkefet. My guess would be Akkadian.

[Qwynegold]

The coronal nasal may be "weaker" than labial or velar ones.

I actually had the same feeling! But if we look like at all the world's languages, I wonder how many have problems with e.g. mn, ŋm, ŋt, ms?

[Qwynegold]

Amal is phonologically inspired by Semitic languages.

I'm guessing not Arabic, with Amal's presence of /p/ and absence of /ħʕɣq/. Hebrew? Or am I way wrong?

I got a very Turkish feel. But it has more to do with the phonotactics than any individual phonemes.

[masako]

What does the double dative-accusative marking signify?

"in" >> DAT, "week(s)" in the ACC

"on" >> DAT, "exam" in the ACC

Correct me if I'm wrong

Spot on.

both adverbs here are kind of acting as verbs in the absence of a copula

Hat trick.

I'm guessing not Arabic, with Amal's presence of /p/ and absence of /ħʕɣq/. Hebrew? Or am I way wrong?

Not very wrong, but a little: The lack of /ħʕ/ is a stylistic choice, but /q/ is present as an allophone of /ʔ/ (I know, weird-ish), and /ɣ/ can be an allophone for /g/. (Keep in mind the Frathwiki article for Amal is very much a WIP.) And /p/ is actually present in more Semitic langs than not.

My guess would be Akkadian.

Akkadian was one source, yes.

I got a very Turkish feel. But it has more to do with the phonotactics than any individual phonemes.

Turkish has actually inspired much of the grammar as well, but yes, the root system (phonotactically) was directly inspired by Turkish and Hungarian.

[Moose-tache]

The coronal nasal may be "weaker" than labial or velar ones.

I actually had the same feeling! But if we look like at all the world's languages, I wonder how many have problems with e.g. mn, ŋm, ŋt, ms?

Some of these I think are pretty common in languages that allow CC clusters. I've heard each of these in non-IE languages at some point. ŋm is even a phoneme (albeit not a cluster, but a co-articulation) in west Africa.

[Richard W]

Biblical Hebrew had all of /p ħ ʕ kʼ/--and [ɣ] counting begadkefet. My guess would be Akkadian.

And there's a strong suspicion that ayin additionally represented a phoneme like [ɣ] in words like the name of Gaza down to the time of the Septuagint.