Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Nortaneous]

Under influence from Innu-aimun, I need the phonemes /f (v) θ (ð) (ɣ)/ to merge with their plosive equivalents in order to both eliminate them and reintroduce voiced consonants as allophones between vowels (similar to the state of affairs in Innu). While I know /θ ð/ > /t d/ is well attested, and so is /ɣ/ > /g/, how likely is /f~v/ > /p~b/)/? Is it possible, under influence from Innu, a language that lacks /f/, for it to completely merge with /p/?

Happened in Tok Pisin, but do you want to have as much restructuring as there is in Tok Pisin? Didn't happen in Michif.

[bradrn]

Under influence from Innu-aimun, I need the phonemes /f (v) θ (ð) (ɣ)/ to merge with their plosive equivalents in order to both eliminate them and reintroduce voiced consonants as allophones between vowels (similar to the state of affairs in Innu). While I know /θ ð/ > /t d/ is well attested, and so is /ɣ/ > /g/, how likely is /f~v/ > /p~b/)/? Is it possible, under influence from Innu, a language that lacks /f/, for it to completely merge with /p/?

Happened in Tok Pisin, but do you want to have as much restructuring as there is in Tok Pisin? Didn't happen in Michif.

Wasn’t Michif quite an unusual case, with Tok Pisin’s restructuring being more usual?

(On the other hand, Ælfwine’s conlang does sound pretty similar to what happened with Michif, so your point is still valid.)

[Whimemsz]

.

[Ahzoh]

How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

[Xwtek]

How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

What is the consonant inventory and the phonotactics?

[Ahzoh]

How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

What is the consonant inventory and the phonotactics?

https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Consonants

Stress is placed on the heaviest syllable and the only syllables allowed is

Light:
CV
CCV
Heavy:
CVV
CVC
Superheavy:
CVVC
And you can not have more than a cluster of 2 consonants in a word and a word cannot end in a cluster of two consonants

[Nortaneous]

How do I turn this set of vowels...

Code: Select all

i iː u uː
e eː o oː
æ æː ɑ ɑː

...into this set of vowels and diphthongs

Code: Select all

i iː    u uː
    ə əː
    a aː

aj aw əj əw

The obvious way:
i i: u u: > aj a:j aw a:w > əj aj əw aw
e e: o o: > i i: u u:
æ æ: > e e: > ə ə:

[Ælfwine]

If the "substrate influence" is the result of any decent amount of language shift among original Innu speakers to Norse I think you can pretty easily get away with this. Older missionary works on Algonquian languages are constantly mentioning how the Indians are incapable of pronouncing some consonants, with /f/ usually one of the sounds given as an example. (Paul Le Jeune's list of the "letters" the Innus can't pronounce is F, L, V, X, and Z, and he gives the example of them pronouncing "Monsieur Olivier" as "Monsieur Olipier" [in the Jesuit Relations for 1634, Thwaites vol. 7].)

Wasn’t Michif quite an unusual case, with Tok Pisin’s restructuring being more usual?

(On the other hand, Ælfwine’s conlang does sound pretty similar to what happened with Michif, so your point is still valid.)

I don't think Michif necessarily applies one way or another -- you say, it's a fairly unique case -- but I don't see how Ælfwine's conlang sounds similar to what happened with Michif. At all. It just sounds like a language that reflects significant influence from another language, which is a common thing, and not what happened with Michif.

This is a "mixed language," but it's less like the exceptional Michif and more like other mixed languages of its kind.

Also, thank you Whimemsz for that tidbit on the Innu.

[bradrn]

This is a "mixed language," but it's less like the exceptional Michif and more like other mixed languages of its kind.

I always thought that Michif was similar to other mixed languages, with its exceptionalism coming mainly from the fact that such mixed languages are very rare.

[Vijay]

Nah, Michif is pretty unusual even for a mixed language, or at least what people call "mixed languages." IIRC it's mainly unusual in that it's split 50-50 between French and Cree (okay not really because there's also influence from English and I think also some other indigenous languages like Ojibwe or something, and probably some other languages I'm either forgetting or don't know about), rather than just being French with some Cree words in it or Cree with some French words in it.

[Nortaneous]

how even a split is there in Mednyj Aleut?

[anteallach]

I saw an Australian language where all plosives are voiced.

As I understand it that’s more of a representational convention than unilateral voicing.

The impression I get from Ladefoged and Maddieson is that in typical Australian languages the stops are not unlike English voiced stops in that they do not have active devoicing (the vocal folds aren't opened) but that the effort to sustain actual voicing (vocal fold vibration) isn't there in the way that it is in, say, French voiced stops. OTOH, they say that in Polynesian languages the vocal folds are opened, so those stops are definitively voiceless.

[Whimemsz]

.

[Ælfwine]

I thought languages like Michif constituted fluency in both of the source languages.

In my case, I assume imperfect learning on behalf of the more numerous Innu, while Norse speakers remain, causing a radical shift in the phonology of the latter's language (and the grammar - I collapsed the masculine and feminine into a common "animate" gender while the neuter is reinterpreted as "inanimate" as an example.)

My only other question is how might I get the Norse language prestigious enough to cause such a radical shift, but that's probably left for another topic outside this thread.

[Vijay]

I thought languages like Michif constituted fluency in both of the source languages.

The original/first speakers of Michif probably spoke both languages fluently, but the few native speakers who remain today don't seem to speak either French or Cree.

[mae]

-

[Whimemsz]

.

[bbbosborne]

what seems more likely, ɠ > ʡ or the other way around?

[Whimemsz]

ɠ > ʡ

[Xwtek]

Is
i a u>e o o/_C*V
where V is an identical vowel.
realistic