Conlang Random Thread

[jal]

Yet, you consistently put "JAL" at the end of each post. (By the way, why don't you use a signature?)

Quite consistently. I think I've never skipped putting it underneath my writing, in all the thousands of posts I've made on the three ZBBs. I don't like signatures, they're bloating the page. I've turned them off, so I don't see others' signatures either.


JAL

[Xwtek]

three ZBBs.

Three?

JAL

But you're just bloating your own post.

[bradrn]

Yet, you consistently put "JAL" at the end of each post. (By the way, why don't you use a signature?)

Quite consistently. I think I've never skipped putting it underneath my writing, in all the thousands of posts I've made on the three ZBBs. I don't like signatures, they're bloating the page. I've turned them off, so I don't see others' signatures either.


JAL

So if I’m understanding this right… you don’t like signatures, you think they bloat the page, you turn them off to avoid this bloat, and yet you insert your own signature in a way which can’t be turned off? I’m sure that I’m missing an important part of your logic here, but I can’t figure out what it is. (Maybe there’s something about phpBB signatures which makes them bloat the page more than a plain text signature does? I’ve never used signatures, so I wouldn’t know.)

three ZBBs.

Three?

I believe there was also a very old board associated with Virtual Verduria. I seem to remember finding an archive somewhere of the posts there, but I can’t find it now…

[jal]

Before the previous ("old") board, there was another board, just like the previous one, and this one. It broke down, and a new board was created. Then that board broke down, and here we are...


JAL

[Salmoneus]

I'm aware of at least four boards. The original board, which aiui was a BB, I only learnt about in hindsight. Then there was spinnoff (which you could divide into pre-ranks, first ranks, and new ranks), then incatena, and now verduria. Before the BB, was there a mailing list or something?

'course, while I was never on the original board, I was on conlangia...

[Raphael]

I'm aware of at least four boards. The original board, which aiui was a BB, I only learnt about in hindsight. Then there was spinnoff (which you could divide into pre-ranks, first ranks, and new ranks), then incatena, and now verduria.

I'd say that spinoff and incatena were the same board, though - you didn't have to create new accounts to post on incatena the way you had for verduria, and the Verduria subforum of what's left of incatena still contains some very early spinoff threads.

Before the BB, was there a mailing list or something?

Not that I knows of, but there was a period on the BB when in order to post something, you had to mail it to Zompist.

[Kuchigakatai]

Here are the correct URLs:

1) www [dot] zompist [dot] com [slash] board [slash]
2) zbb [dot] spinnwebe [dot] com
3) www [dot] incatena [dot] org
4) verduria [dot] org

Number 1 was the Virtual Verduria bulletin board, where you had to email your post to Zompist so that he'd add it.

I'd say that spinoff and incatena were the same board, though - you didn't have to create new accounts to post on incatena the way you had for verduria, and the Verduria subforum of what's left of incatena still contains some very early spinoff threads.

The first phpBB forum on spinnwebe allowed guest/anonymous posting during its first few years, but then it was turned off. This is why vohpenonomae was awarded a unique rank, since he had insisted on posting without an account for a long time, but then he was forced to make one. The incatena forum never allowed guest posting.

The spinnwebe forum and the incatena forum can be counted as the same forum though, because the database was successfully transferred from the former to the latter. Hence why the oldest accounts in the incatena forum reported having been made in 2002, even though the transfer from forum #2 to forum #3 happened circa 2010 (I don't know the exact year). (There was an attempt at carrying out a second database transfer to the verduria forum, but it was not successful.)

[Salmoneus]

Here are the correct URLs:

1) www [dot] zompist [dot] com [slash] board [slash]
2) zbb [dot] spinnwebe [dot] com
3) www [dot] incatena [dot] org
4) verduria [dot] org

spinnwebe definitely had a spinnoff address as well, though I can't remember whether that was a replacement or just an alternative address of some kind.

The first phpBB forum on spinnwebe allowed guest/anonymous posting during its first few years, but then it was turned off. This is why vohpenonomae was awarded a unique rank, since he had insisted on posting without an account for a long time, but then he was forced to make one. The incatena forum never allowed guest posting.

Jeff was made Nguni not just because he'd been posting under a guest account, but primarily I think because he was the most knowledgeable person around at that time. After all, I'd ben posting under a guest account too, but I never got a special rank... (because I didn't deserve one)...

Then the ranks changed later on, which made Jeff's rank icon rather incongruous, because it wasn't changed to match the new style. [the original ranks were little figures and the like, replaced by more abstract bars. And then moderators got their own sash-things toward the end]

FWIW, I don't think it had gues posting for years, though. It introduced compulsory registration in 2003; I'd been there for around six months at that point, but my impression was that the board was still very young at that time - I thought it originated in 2002? But I could be wrong.

Anyway, we're kind of off on a tangent now...

The spinnwebe forum and the incatena forum can be counted as the same forum though

Fair enough, I guess.

[Whimemsz]

It did originate in 2002, yes. (And you guys are all making me feel extremely old...Also it's occurred to me several times lately that I've been on the ZBB for literally more than half my life, which is rather astonishing...)

[zompist]

I've forgotten the details, but the original board used some 3rd-party software. It either failed or didn't do what I wanted, so I wrote some shell scripts to do most of the work. But I didn't know how to capture text info, thus the e-mailing.

We moved from spinn's server when he got hacked (plus I always felt bad about imposing on him). And of course moved here because errors were making the board unusable. I assume it's because of the size of the database, but Dreamhost was of no use at all in diagnosis.

So in one form or another, it's been around for almost 20 years.

[Ælfwine]

I figured out how to get a very Cree-esque (Creesque?) phonology for my Vinlandic conlang. Faroese (a sister language to this) has a sound change v,ð,ɣ -> j,w depending on whether the following vowel is a back one or a front one, eliminating these phones. Faroese also palatalizes k > tʃ and sk > ʃ before front vowels, which would give me those phonemes. In Vínlenzka, /θ/ early on merges to /tʰ/, and /f/ becomes /h/ as I described before. This gives me the following inventory:

/m n ŋ/
/pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k/
/s ʃ h/
/j w/
/r l/

Very similar to Cree languages, eh? From here I can eliminate the aspiration contrast entirely and possibly merge /r/ with /l/.

[Whimemsz]

Mishta-miam tshitishi-tuten!

[Moose-tache]

I figured out how to get a very Cree-esque (Creesque?) phonology for my Vinlandic conlang. Faroese (a sister language to this) has a sound change v,ð,ɣ -> j,w depending on whether the following vowel is a back one or a front one, eliminating these phones. Faroese also palatalizes k > tʃ and sk > ʃ before front vowels, which would give me those phonemes. In Vínlenzka, /θ/ early on merges to /tʰ/, and /f/ becomes /h/ as I described before. This gives me the following inventory:

/m n ŋ/
/pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k/
/s ʃ h/
/j w/
/r l/

Very similar to Cree languages, eh? From here I can eliminate the aspiration contrast entirely and possibly merge /r/ with /l/.

I tried running this Faroese poem through the changes you describe:

Niri iitʃeknum har leetʰararnir hanka ok eltin birjaji
Lonkri niri
Har treemarnir traala
Upʰahtʰur tjuupʰari
Untir stʰeenunum har plintu jerurnar halta tʰil
Hajani kʰom hann
Hramjetʃis rekʰstʰ hann ii tʃetʰunum
Ii hrakʰanum sum luktʰar aw sikar ok eensemi
Hansara hakra ponskʰa onkamannalant
Hitʰ tʃitʰnastʰa ii okʰara pookʰmentʰum
Takarnir wooru pʰarakrahar Natʰurnar or
Hinkrar kʰrektʰir um reklur
Mewan ajrir piktu priir um aair
Reistʰi hann priir millum lont
Ii huntraw aar
Rukʰan hjaa intʰellektʰuellu elitʰuni
Oontskʰapshullur, haalwhullur, etʰantihullur
Eisini aw kʰarleekʰa tʰil siitʰ moowurmaal
Luktʰurin aa eensemi ok sikar
Rekʰstʰ hramjetʃis ii tʃetʰunum

It certainly doesn't resemble Cree. Inventories are only a tiny part of the story, though I'm sure Vinlandic will experience other influences as well, especially regarding consonant clusters.

[Nortaneous]

let's say the aspiration distinction collapses too, since Cree doesn't have aspirates - except postvocalically where it gives hC. break o to wa, u > o. -um is /un/ at least in datives.

Niri īčeknon har lēhtararnir hanka wak eltin biryayi, lwankri niri, har trēmarnir trāla, opahtor tyōhpari, ontir stēnonom har plinto yerornar halta til hayani kom han. Hramyečis rehkst han ī čehtonon, ī hrahkanon som loktar aw sikar wak ēnsemi, hansara hakra pwanska wankamannalant, hit čihtnasta ī wahkara pwāhkmenton. Takarnir wāro parakrahar nahtornar war hinkrar krektir om reklor, mewan ayrir pikto prīr om āir. Reisti han prīr millon lwant ī hontraw ār. Rohkan hyā intellektoello elihtoni, wāntskapshollor, hālohollor, ehtantihollor, eisini aw karlēhka til sīht mwāwormāl, loktorin ā ēnsemi wak sikar rehkst hramyečis ī čehtonon.

cf. Cree:

Īkwa ōma pīyakwāw ī-kīsikāk ī-kī-nātaðapīyān, īkwāni īkwa nikapān, ī-osīhakwāw kinosīwak, īkwa kā-nitawi-akotakwāw īkwa akwāwānisihk, ī-wī-aya-wīskwaswakwāw, nimīstikwak ī-wī-osīhakwāw. Īkwāni īkwa nipimahkamikisin kinosīwak ī-osīhakwāw, īkwa nāsipītimihk māka wiða ōma kā-itahkamikisiyān. Kītahtawī kā-pī-nāsipīpahtāt īkwa awa nicīmisin, ī-āpasāpit māna itī kā-ohcipahtāt, īkotī ī-itāpit, ī-sīpisit, īkota kisiwāk pī-apiw ita ōma ka-osīhikinosīwīyān, mīcisowināhtik ī-ayāk nīsipītimihk, īkota ōma kā-osīhakwāw kinosīwak. Īkwa ōma nikospin īkwa niwīcīwāw, mitoni kostāciw, nimwāc kīkwāy niwāpahtīn anima kā-kostahk, īkwāni īkwa, nacakwāwānisihk nititohtān, nitakotāwak īkwa ōko nikinosīmak kā-wīskwaswakwāw—ī-kē-pōnamān wiða mīna pitamā. Īkwāni īkwa nipīhtokwān īkwa, wāskahikanisihk īkotī īkwa mīna nipimahkamikisin. Āskaw niwaðawān ī-nitawi-pōnamān. Īkwa ōma ī-ayitahkamikisiyān, nitati īkwa āpihtā kīsikani mīcison, īkwāni īkwa nititohtān ita kā-wīskwaswakwāw kinosīwak, nipōnasin, namōða mistahi nipōnīn, wīða ōma ī-itīðihtamān īkwa ī-wī-kawisimowān īkwa ī-wī-aðiwīpiyān. Īkwāni ī-kī-pōnasiyān, īkwāni nipīhtokwān īkwa, īkwāni īkwa nikawisimon ī-pa-pimisiniyān ī-ayamihcikīyān, kītahtawī īkwa māka awa nicīmisin, sōskwāc īkwa kwayask mikisimow, kwayask ī-kostācit. Īkwāni nitīpwātāw īkwa, “pōnwīwita.”

as you can see, the phoneme frequencies are completely different. compare Abau (/p r k m n s h j w a e o i u/) to Hawaiian (/p l k ʔ m n h v a e o i u/)... actually, let's replace Hawaiian /v/ with /w/, /r/ with /l/ word-initially, and /ʔ/ with /s/, to better approximate the Abau inventory

Abau:
Sohiy so meyki hokwe, ha sa uwrsa popua hay hok nuwhokruw konpakon kawk ke lira. Hmo meir mokwe uwr posokwaw sor meiryay ley. Uwrsa somokwe owhohi senkin senkin, uwrkayn senkin senkin, kipay senkin senkin, woukok senkin senkin non ko me lenene. Homkwe siaking o, sipsipney o, hoho inour mon nakrokkay, seyr klos weyspey meaw nakie liyay, seyr pokriyma me naknakruok, hmo iha mon kokwe. Homkwe woukok aiopey hay non senkin nuwme.

Fake Hawaiian:
Osokahi nō leherehe, hosokahi hosi sōrero a ko ka honua a pau. A i ko lākou here sana mai ka hikina mai, loasa iā lākou kahi pāpū ma ka sāina so Sinara; a noho ihora lākou i laira. Sōrero asera kekahi kanaka i kona hoa, Inā kākou, e hana kākou i nā pōhaku sura, e kahu a mosa loa. So ko lākou pōhaku, he pōhaku sura, a he pitumena ko lākou puna. Sōrero asera lākou, Inā kākou, e hana kākou i kūranakauhare no kākou, a me ka hare pākusi e kisekise ase kona wērau i ka lani; a e hosokaurana i ko kākou inoa, o hosopuehu sia aku kākou ma luna o ka honua a pau.

the only difference in inventory between Abau and Fake Hawaiian is that Fake Hawaiian doesn't have /j/, but they look completely different because they have different phonotactics and different frequencies

[Ælfwine]

Mishta-miam tshitishi-tuten!

Something giant?

I figured out how to get a very Cree-esque (Creesque?) phonology for my Vinlandic conlang. Faroese (a sister language to this) has a sound change v,ð,ɣ -> j,w depending on whether the following vowel is a back one or a front one, eliminating these phones. Faroese also palatalizes k > tʃ and sk > ʃ before front vowels, which would give me those phonemes. In Vínlenzka, /θ/ early on merges to /tʰ/, and /f/ becomes /h/ as I described before. This gives me the following inventory:

/m n ŋ/
/pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k/
/s ʃ h/
/j w/
/r l/

Very similar to Cree languages, eh? From here I can eliminate the aspiration contrast entirely and possibly merge /r/ with /l/.

I tried running this Faroese poem through the changes you describe:

Niri iitʃeknum har leetʰararnir hanka ok eltin birjaji
Lonkri niri
Har treemarnir traala
Upʰahtʰur tjuupʰari
Untir stʰeenunum har plintu jerurnar halta tʰil
Hajani kʰom hann
Hramjetʃis rekʰstʰ hann ii tʃetʰunum
Ii hrakʰanum sum luktʰar aw sikar ok eensemi
Hansara hakra ponskʰa onkamannalant
Hitʰ tʃitʰnastʰa ii okʰara pookʰmentʰum
Takarnir wooru pʰarakrahar Natʰurnar or
Hinkrar kʰrektʰir um reklur
Mewan ajrir piktu priir um aair
Reistʰi hann priir millum lont
Ii huntraw aar
Rukʰan hjaa intʰellektʰuellu elitʰuni
Oontskʰapshullur, haalwhullur, etʰantihullur
Eisini aw kʰarleekʰa tʰil siitʰ moowurmaal
Luktʰurin aa eensemi ok sikar
Rekʰstʰ hramjetʃis ii tʃetʰunum

It certainly doesn't resemble Cree. Inventories are only a tiny part of the story, though I'm sure Vinlandic will experience other influences as well, especially regarding consonant clusters.

You are absolutely right. I've come up with a few additional sound changes to help rectify that:

/n l r/ are deleted in syllable coda, with the former causing nasalization of the preceding vowel and all three causing lengthening.

Clusters of /hC/ (initially and internally from preaspiration) disappear by modern day, but perhaps not in all dialects.

Other clusters are resolved via assimilation: kl --> ll, ks --> ss etc.

None of these really violate any existing tendencies in Old Norse (assimilation is especially productive in Norwegian), so if this language was taken out of Eastern Canada and put in Norway, it wouldn't be too out of place. Of course, this is just the phonology, I have grander plans for the grammar.

Edit re: Nort

Niri īčeknon har lēhtararnir hanka wak eltin biryayi, lwankri niri, har trēmarnir trāla, opahtor tyōhpari, ontir stēnonom har plinto yerornar halta til hayani kom han. Hramyečis rehkst han ī čehtonon, ī hrahkanon som loktar aw sikar wak ēnsemi, hansara hakra pwanska wankamannalant, hit čihtnasta ī wahkara pwāhkmenton. Takarnir wāro parakrahar nahtornar war hinkrar krektir om reklor, mewan ayrir pikto prīr om āir. Reisti han prīr millon lwant ī hontraw ār. Rohkan hyā intellektoello elihtoni, wāntskapshollor, hālohollor, ehtantihollor, eisini aw karlēhka til sīht mwāwormāl, loktorin ā ēnsemi wak sikar rehkst hramyečis ī čehtonon.

That's a bit more like it!

[Nortaneous]

Niri īčīnǫ hā lēhtarānī hąka wak ītį piryayi, lwąkri niri, hā čēmānī čāla, opahtō čōhpari, ǫtī itēnonǫ hā plįto irōnā hāta tī hayani kǫ hą. Hramičis riht hą ī čihtonǫ, ī hrahkanǫ sǫ lōtā aw šikā wak ęsimi, hąsara hakra pwąhka wąkamānaląt, hit čihnahta ī wahkara pwāhmįtǫ. Takānī wāro parakrahā nahtōnā wā hįkrā krītī ǫ riklō, miwā ayrī pīto prī om āyī. Rēhti hā prī mīlō lwāt ī hǫčaw ā. Rohkā hyā intīlītwīlo ilihtoni, wąhkāsōlō, hālohōlō, ihtątihōlō, ēšini aw kālēhka til sīht mwāwōmā, lōtorī ā ęsimi wak sikā riht hramičis ī čihtonō.

or with assimilation instead of compensatory lengthening

Niri īčinnǫ hā lēhtarannī hąka wak ītį piryayi, lwąkri niri, hā čēmannī čāla, opahtō čōhpari, ǫtī itēnonǫ hā plįto ironnā hatta tī hayani kǫ hą. Hramičis riht hą ī čihtonǫ, ī hrahkanǫ sǫ lottā aw šikā wak ęssimi, hąssara hakra pwąhka wąkamannaląt, hit činnahta ī wahkara pwāmmįtǫ. Takannī wāro parakrahā nahtonnā wā hįkrā krītī ǫ rillō, miwā arrī pitto prī om āyī. Rēhti hā prī mīlō lwāt ī hǫčaw ā. Rohkā hyā intīlittwillo ilihtoni, wąkkassollō, hālohollō, ihtątihōlō, ēšini aw kallēhka til sīht mwāwonnā, lottorī ā ęsimi wak sikā riht hramičis ī čihtonō.

[Ælfwine]

Niri īčīnǫ hā lēhtarānī hąka wak ītį piryayi, lwąkri niri, hā čēmānī čāla, opahtō čōhpari, ǫtī itēnonǫ hā plįto irōnā hāta tī hayani kǫ hą. Hramičis riht hą ī čihtonǫ, ī hrahkanǫ sǫ lōtā aw šikā wak ęsimi, hąsara hakra pwąhka wąkamānaląt, hit čihnahta ī wahkara pwāhmįtǫ. Takānī wāro parakrahā nahtōnā wā hįkrā krītī ǫ riklō, miwā ayrī pīto prī om āyī. Rēhti hā prī mīlō lwāt ī hǫčaw ā. Rohkā hyā intīlītwīlo ilihtoni, wąhkāsōlō, hālohōlō, ihtątihōlō, ēšini aw kālēhka til sīht mwāwōmā, lōtorī ā ęsimi wak sikā riht hramičis ī čihtonō.

or with assimilation instead of compensatory lengthening

Niri īčinnǫ hā lēhtarannī hąka wak ītį piryayi, lwąkri niri, hā čēmannī čāla, opahtō čōhpari, ǫtī itēnonǫ hā plįto ironnā hatta tī hayani kǫ hą. Hramičis riht hą ī čihtonǫ, ī hrahkanǫ sǫ lottā aw šikā wak ęssimi, hąssara hakra pwąhka wąkamannaląt, hit činnahta ī wahkara pwāmmįtǫ. Takannī wāro parakrahā nahtonnā wā hįkrā krītī ǫ rillō, miwā arrī pitto prī om āyī. Rēhti hā prī mīlō lwāt ī hǫčaw ā. Rohkā hyā intīlittwillo ilihtoni, wąkkassollō, hālohollō, ihtątihōlō, ēšini aw kallēhka til sīht mwāwonnā, lottorī ā ęsimi wak sikā riht hramičis ī čihtonō.

Barely recognizable as Norse! Which can be a good thing or a bad thing...I might have to dial it back somewhat. I might keep some characters as well to accentuate its "Norseness," perhaps <ø> (for /ə~ʌ/? < /ɔ/, c.f. Icelandic /ɔ/ > /œ/; dialectal Swedish > /ɞ/) and <ð> for historical [ð], like in Faroese. But I'll see what works, first.

Pray tell, is there a text and/or gloss in the original Norse of it somewhere?

[Nortaneous]

Niri ítjínon há þéttarání hanka åk ítin pirjaji, þånkri niri, há tjémání tjáða, opattó tjóppari, ontí iténonon há printo iróná háta tí hajani kon han. Hramitjis ritt han í tjittonon, í hrakkanon son þótá av sjiká åk ensimi, hansara hakra pånkka ånkamánaðant, hit tjinnatta í åkkara pǻmminton. Takání ǻro parakrahá nattóná ǻ hinkra krítí on rikró, mivá ærí píto prí om ájí. Rétti há prí míðon þǻt í hontjav á. Rokkan hjá intíðítvíðo iðittoni, ǻnkkásóðó, háðohóðó, ittantihóðó, ésjini av káðékka tí sítt mǻvómá, þótorin á ensimi åk siká ritt hramitjis í tjittonon.

it'd look a lot more Norse with orthographic restoration of lost coda consonants, although this doesn't necessarily have to be etymological (I'm just using -r here; you could also use o u instead of å o. there are probably a lot of mistakes here. also l > T/D)

Niri ítjínon há þéttararnir hanka åk irtin pirjaji, þånkri niri, har tjémarnir tjáða, opattor tjóppari, ontir iténonon har printo irornar harta til hajani kon han. Hramitjis ritt han í tjittonon, í hrakkanon son þortar av sjikar åk ensimi, hansara hakra pånkka ånkamánaðant, hit tjinnatta í åkkara pårmminton. Takarnir váro parakrahar nattornar var hinkrar krirtir on rikror, mivá ærir pirto prir om ájir. Rétti há prir miððon þǻt í hontjav ar. Rokkan hjá intíðítvíðo iðittoni, varnkkarsoððor, háðohoððor, ittantihoððor, ésjini av kaððékka til sítt mǻvormar, þortorin á ensimi åk sikar ritt hramitjis í tjittonon.

[Ælfwine]

I think there are a few mistakes you made (although others were introduced by Moose, e.g. I neglected to mention the outcome of Faroese glides before and after consonants, which is usually deletion and fortition respectively. So birjaji should be birgaji or birdaji or whatever the original consonant was.)

For now I am going to go back and fine tune the sound changes before deciding on an orthography (even an ad-hoc one.) Thanks for these examples, as I have a good idea what I might need to improve and decide upon.

[Curlyjimsam]

It did originate in 2002, yes. (And you guys are all making me feel extremely old...Also it's occurred to me several times lately that I've been on the ZBB for literally more than half my life, which is rather astonishing...)

I joined the ZBB in, I think, late 2004 - and still haven't entirely got over feeling like one of the "newbies" ...