Tiffany problems

[Ares Land]

I learned a few hours ago that the song "Nel blu, dipinto di blu", probably better known in the English-speaking world as "The Volare Song", dates back to 1958. I never expected it to be that old. If, before now, I would have seen a scene from a movie made in, say, the early 1960s with a drunken crowd singing "Volaaaaare - oh-oh", that would definitely have been a Tiffany Problem for me.

And I thought it was way older than that!

[Vijay]

I thought the ESC was older.

[Salmoneus]

Speaking of Italian (-ish) pop songs, one I'm always a little temporally confused by is ''O sole mio'. On the one hand, if you think of it as "Just one more cornetto" or the song ice cream vans play (I'm assuming the former predates the latter, but I'm not certain...), it seems quite modern. If you think of it as the Elvis Presley song "It's now or never", it feels very much of its (1950s) era.

But then if you think of it as being an Italian aria, it sounds like Verdi, and you'd think it was from the mid-19th century.

And in reality, it's neither - it's a pop song from 1898.

More obscurely, and I can't say this is one that's affected me, not being a fan of mid-century pop music, but it's probably caught some people out: Frank Sinatra's "None but the lonely heart" - the music is actually by Tchaikovsky, and the lyrics are by Goethe (albeit in translation). One thing did catch me personally: The Americans used a lush, orchestral version of this as a symbol of Russian music (it's the final track in the show)... but Tchaikovsky actually wrote it as a popular song for piano and singer, so the Sinatra version is in a sense more authentic. The orchestral version is from the 20th century... and is by an American...

[hwhatting]

Bikinis and a beach ball in anient Rome.

[Pabappa]

http://enwp.org/Thames_frost_fair

The first known frost fair on the River Thames was in AD 695, although it was not known by the title of frost fair. The river froze over for six weeks. Vendors set up booths on the frozen river in which they sold goods.

"Vendors" 1300 years ago?? I figured it was pretty much a cashless society back then, with people working for the right to live and not much else. It kind of reminds me of my post on the first page where I was surprised that a stock market existed in the 1600s .... but this is nearly a thousand years before that, and I think that in 695 the Anglo-Saxons weren't even really fully in control of England yet.

Board games are much older than I thought, too, apparently having existed in ancient Egypt. Just as impressive to me is that they may have existed in early medieval Europe too, based on the rune poem entry

peorð byþ symble plega and hlehter / ƿlancum [on middum], ðar ƿigan sittaþ / on beorsele bliþe ætsomne
"Peorð is a source of recreation and amusement to the great, where warriors sit blithely together in the beerhall."

But other explanations for this line are possible, such as woodwind instruments.

[Nortaneous]

Board games are much older than I thought, too, apparently having existed in ancient Egypt. Just as impressive to me is that they may have existed in early medieval Europe too, based on the rune poem entry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alea_evangelii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_game ... literature

[Raphael]

Before I first watched the suitcase scene in the third episode of the second season of Derry Girls, I would have been pretty sure that bomb disposal robots were an invention of the early 21st century and didn't yet exist in the 1990s.

[Torco]

I might have thought that girls calling their boyfriends 'honey' was a modern thing, but nope. not even a little bit new.

[Frislander]

I might have thought that girls calling their boyfriends 'honey' was a modern thing, but nope. not even a little bit new.

I only just now discovered that the (well-established) Northumbrian English hinny does not in fact come from this origin but rather from an equine term.

[Kuchigakatai]

"Procrastination" is a word borrowed from Classical Latin, not some kind of early modern coinage. It is admittedly pretty rare, attested only about ten times, mostly in Cicero.

Nam cum plerisque in rebus gerendis tarditas et procrastinatio odiosa est, tum hoc bellum indiget celeritatis.
'In the same way that slowness and procrastination are heinous in most situations, this war is in need of speed.'
(Cicero, Philippica VI.7)

[Ryusenshi]

Henry V by Shakespeare mentions tennis balls.

The name tennis would have been anachronistic for the actual King Henry V, though he could have played its ancestor, jeu de paume (and contemporary Kings of France were indeed fond of the game).

[Raphael]

Come to think of it, I find it a bit weird that mining is as old as it is. I know, people have been mining for basically as long as they have been using metals, which is very long, but the idea of people operating mines with ancient technology still feels kinda weird to me.

[Richard W]

Come to think of it, I find it a bit weird that mining is as old as it is. I know, people have been mining for basically as long as they have been using metals, which is very long, but the idea of people operating mines with ancient technology still feels kinda weird to me.

And what's wrong with antlers as picks? That's what was used in the flint mine of Grime's Graves.

[Pabappa]

Interesting. As late as 1700 BC people in northern Europe were using tools made of bone to fashion tools made of stone.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayoi_period , Japan was even further behind ... their Neolithic period didnt even *begin* until 300 BC, probably associated with the migration of the ancestors of the Yamato people from the mainland. Also, if my understanding is correct, they didnt have rice yet, or at least not large scale rice farming ... they were hunter-gatherers.

[mèþru]

The Jomon period were hunter-gatherers, but I'm not certain I'd call them pre-Neolithic. Or is the Neolithic defined by farming?

[Linguoboy]

The Jomon period were hunter-gatherers, but I'm not certain I'd call them pre-Neolithic. Or is the Neolithic defined by farming?

I don't think so, at least not in Europe, since I've definitely heard the phrase "Neolithic farmers" before.

[Kuchigakatai]

Interesting. As late as 1700 BC people in northern Europe were using tools made of bone to fashion tools made of stone.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayoi_period , Japan was even further behind ... their Neolithic period didnt even *begin* until 300 BC, probably associated with the migration of the ancestors of the Yamato people from the mainland. Also, if my understanding is correct, they didnt have rice yet, or at least not large scale rice farming ... they were hunter-gatherers.

Well, it doesn't help that rice doesn't grow easily at Japan's latitude until you develop particular wet-rice techniques. In China, the ancient songs of the Shijing include some praise for millet, since that was their agricultural grain staple, but rice doesn't show up until Mencius' time in the Warring States Period. Even today, in 21st century China, there is a meme (or commonplace observation/joke) about northerners liking wheat noodles vs. southerners who prefer fried rice instead. Presumably, the migrations from mainland Eurasia in late Jomoi / early Yayoi brought wet-rice cultivation.

[Richard W]

The Jomon period were hunter-gatherers, but I'm not certain I'd call them pre-Neolithic. Or is the Neolithic defined by farming?

I don't think so, at least not in Europe, since I've definitely heard the phrase "Neolithic farmers" before.

I think that's to distinguish them from later farmers, not from non-farming neighbours.

That said, it looks as though the Jomon acquired some technology from their neighbours, so possibly the terminology is unhelpful at such a late date.

[Nachtswalbe]

Indian food in the United Kingdom dates back to the late 18th century, and modified versions of foreign cuisines are not just a product of the 20th century as 'fusion cuisine'; kedgeree dates back to the Victorian era

[Nerulent]

A small one - the phrase 'birthday suit' is attested from the 1730s.