Is this attested? (Updated: comments appreciated!)

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bradrn
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Re: Is this attested?

Post by bradrn »

Richard W wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:58 pm
bradrn wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:28 am
akam chinjir wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:18 am My memory's not supplying me with specific examples, unfortunately. It's pretty widely thought that ergative clauses can derive from passives, and part of that story is that the agent phrase in the passive gets reinterpreted as subject, but retaining whatever oblique morphology agents of passives typically got, which is often instrumental.
I did know that ergative can derive from passives; I just didn’t make the connection that the former subject of the passivised sentence could get instrumental case. (I’m more familiar with it being dative.)
It's quite common in Pali to find formally passive past tense sentences that are best translated as active sentences. I understand this also shows up in Sanskrit.
I believe that happens quite regularly in Māori as well: Dixon comments that it has ‘a passive construction which is extensively used — it may be more frequent than the active’. As for Pali, in general, Indo-Iranian has quite a few languages which get their ergative from passives: Hindustani is of course the most famous, but also several other closely related languages.

Oh, and by the way, while I was looking at Dixon for the quote above, I finally found a concrete example of how to get an ergative case from a genitive! Here’s what Dixon says about that:
Dixon wrote: [Proto-Iranian] appears to have been fully accusative but … an ergative construction developed in the past tense, probably from a passive-like participle; S and O were marked by direct case, a continuation of the Old Iranian nominative, and A by an oblique case, which is a historical continuation of the original genitive.
Unfortunately this is a bit light on details, but it seems to confirm what everyone has been saying about getting ergative via genitive.
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dewrad
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Re: Is this attested? (Updated: comments appreciated!)

Post by dewrad »

OK, so having decided to run with akam chinjir's idea, I'm going to try to build this up step by step from first principles. Where possible, I have tried to avoid specific terminology (such as ergative, absolutive etc) where this might convey implications that are not necessarily the case.

Basic principles:

Regardless of its "semantic transitivity", each verb is morphosyntactically monovalent. That is, it obligatorily selects one (and only one) core argument.

Morphosyntactic marking is concerned with intention and affect: who intended this action, and who/what was affected.

The loci of marking in the verb phrase are the verb itself, which marks affect, and the verb's single argument, which marks intention.

A bit of terminology and morphology:

Verbs can be divided into two groups: stative, which express a state; or dynamic, which express a change in state or an action. This is a semantic property and does not have overt inflectional marking[1].

The verb can take one of two "versions"[2]: the effective *a~ä; or the affective *u~o. The latter is more "marked" than the former.

The single core argument of a verb is referred to as the specifier[3].

The specifier can take one of two cases: the accidentive *a~ä; or the intentive *u~o. Again, the latter is more "marked" than the former.

Instantiation:

Stative verbs, logically, do not affect anything nor can they be intended by anyone. As such, both verb and specifier take the least marked inflectional categories:

piykʰa wetɬä
piykʰ
girl
-a
-ACD
wetɬ
sleep
-a
-EFF

"The girl sleeps."

Moving on to dynamic verbs, if an action is intended then the specifier is marked with the intentive case:

päytʰo ŋara
päytʰ
boy
-u
-INT
ŋar
break
a
-EFF

"The boy breaks something (on purpose)."

And if it is unintentional, then the accidentive case is used:

päytʰä ŋara
päytʰ
boy
-a
-ACD
ŋar
break
a
-EFF

"The boy breaks something (accidentally)."

So far, the example verbs have used the effective version. The effective version is essentially agnostic as to who/what is affected by the verb. By contrast, the affective version indicates that the specifier is affected by the verb in some way. Compare:

tanu pʰetnä
tan
man
-u
-INT
pʰetn
wash
-a
-EFF

"The man washes something."

tanu pʰetno
tan
man
-u
-INT
pʰetn
wash
-u
-AFF

"The man washes himself/the man washes something for his own benefit"

The affective version can be used in conjunction with a specifier in the accidentive case:

tana xʷoso
tan
man
-a
-ACD
xʷos
rain
-u
-AFF

"The man got rained upon."

To expand somewhat, the affective + intentive often has a reflexive or benefactive meaning, while the affective + accidentive often has a "passive" or even "malefactive" meaning. Compare:

tanu saɣtu
tan
man
-u
-INT
saɣt
kill
-u
-AFF

"The man killed himself / the man killed something or someone for his own benefit."

tana saɣtu
tan
man
-a
-ACD
saɣt
kill
-u
-AFF

"The man got himself killed."

Adjuncts, or adding other participants:

Non-core arguments can be introduced to the verb phrase by means of a noun in the oblique case (marked with *i~e). Nouns in this case are underspecified for their precise thematic role. For example, the sentence:

piykʰu ʔisɣi saɣta
piykʰ
girl
-u
-INT
ʔisɣ
fish
-i
-OBL
saɣt
kill
-a
-EFF


Could mean "the girl killed the fish" or "the girl killed something in the manner of a fish" or "the girl killed something using a fish".

Similarly, one should resist the temptation to analyse a sentence like

päytʰä motkʰe saɣtu
päytʰ
boy
-a
-ACD
motk
cave.bear
-i
-OBL
saɣt
kill
-u
-AFF


as being a simple "passive" construction like "the boy was killed by a bear". Another possible reading is "the boy accidentally killed something in the manner of a bear, which had an adverse impact upon him" (for example, maybe he accidentally crushed his baby sister to death and this has led to him being shunned by the rest of his tribe).

Furthermore, the sentence

päytʰo motkʰe saɣtu
päytʰ
boy
-u
-INT
motk
cave.bear
-i
-OBL
saɣt
kill
-u
-AFF


could mean "the boy killed a bear for himself" or "the boy committed suicide by bear", or even "the boy won himself renown by killing something in the manner of a bear". Context alone serves to supply the correct meaning: the first implicature would be the most likely if one saw a boy dragging a bear back to camp, the second if responding to a question about why we no longer see the boy around any more and the third perhaps if one asks why a small boy is being celebrated and treated with deference.

The above examples have used semantically transitive verbs, but the same considerations apply with semantically intransitive verbs:

tseɣro motkʰe naɣa
tseɣr
shaman
-u
-INT
motk
cave.bear
-i
-OBL
naɣ
approach.the.speaker
-a
-EFF


The above sentence could, for example, mean "the shaman summoned the bear for me" or "the shaman came towards me like a bear" (or, indeed, it could have both meanings at the same time).

While these fine distinctions can of course be made more explicit by means of postpositions, my point in giving the variant readings above is that no particular implicature is favoured above another. The oblique case does not necessarily introduce an argument which satisfies the semantic transitivity of a given verb.

----

[1] That is not to say that it cannot be marked through derivational processes.

[2] I have preferred this term to "voice", as the latter is often used as a term for a phenomenon which increases or decreases a verb's valence, which is not possible in this language.

[3] This is a term stolen from X-Bar theory and entirely misapplied in this case. However, it avoids the connotations of "subject".
bradrn
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Re: Is this attested? (Updated: comments appreciated!)

Post by bradrn »

Looks great! It’s not something I’d expect to see in a natlang, but it still feels very realistic in a way.

One addition I’d make is a summary table covering all the possibilities of effective/affective, accidental/intensive and stative/dynamic, something like this:
Stative verbs:
EFFAFF
ACDneutral meaningreflexive/benefactive
INT?passive/malefactive
Dynamic verbs:
EFFAFF
ACDnon-volitivereflexive/benefactive
INTvolitivepassive/malefactive
This reveals that there is one cell which you haven’t described: what happens to stative verbs with effective marking and an intensive argument?

There is also one detail which I would like to clarify:
dewrad wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:59 am To expand somewhat, the affective + intentive often has a reflexive or benefactive meaning, while the affective + accidentive often has a "passive" or even "malefactive" meaning
What exactly do you mean by ‘passive’ here? It can’t be the notion of passive as a valency-decreasing operation, since you have already said that your language (does it have a name?) has no such operations. It also can’t be the more abstract idea that passive focuses on the object, since your language doesn’t have ‘objects’ in the traditional sense either. Perhaps you are talking about the fact that passive focuses on the resulting state rather than the action itself?
Last edited by bradrn on Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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akam chinjir
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Re: Is this attested? (Updated: comments appreciated!)

Post by akam chinjir »

I imagine verbs of consumption could end up being quite interesting here---given that the person eating is both acting and being affected, and it's pretty common to want to emphasise the affectedness (e.g. "I ate" uttered with the implicature that I'm not hungry now).

Edit: Like, with EAT as a placeholder verb, could tanu ʔisɣi EATu mean something like the man filled up on fish as well as the man was eaten by a fish?

bradrn: I imagine passive in the sense that it might describe an action that would normally have an agent, but the apparent subject is the patient.
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