Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Natural languages and linguistics
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Zju wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:55 am Normally languages don't allow nominative reflexives:
He hit himself.
*Heself hit him.


How does that work in ergative-absolutive languages? Are reflexives prohibited in the ergative or absolutive slotf?
An interesting question! In his book Ergativity, R. M. W. Dixon has this to say about the subject:
Dixon wrote: In every ergative language [with this sort of reflexive], as in every accusative language, the ‘antecedent’ i.e. the controller of reflexivity is A (or S, where it is extended to intransitives). This appears to be a universal …
Dixon notes that reflexives such reflexives are one of a few constructions (also including e.g. imperatives and causatives) that ergative languages treat the same as accusative languages.

(An interesting point: he also noted that many strongly ergative languages, such as Dyirbal and Macushi, have a tendency to use morphological reflexives rather than reflexive pronouns. But there are still plenty of ergative languages which use a reflexive pronouns instead.)

EDIT: I just noticed a footnote which I missed earlier. Dixon writes that occasionally, especially with verbs ‘referring to mental processes’, it is possible to have the reflexive in the ergative slot, e.g. Basque ‘Himself enchants my brother’. Interestingly, this doesn’t appear to be restricted to ergative languages alone: a Modern Greek example is ‘Myself tortures me’. But these are very much exceptional cases.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Qwynegold
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

Does anyone have examples of zero-valent verbs that aren't precipitation verbs? (For this purpose I'll count verbs that only take dummy pronouns as zero-valent.) I only have two examples, from Finnish and Swedish.

Det blåser.
det blås-er
it.N blow-PRS
The wind is blowing.

Tuulee.
tuul-ee
blow-PRS
The wind is blowing.

Det spökar i det där huset.
det spök-ar i det där hus-et
it.N ghost-PRS in that.N there house-DEF.N
That house is haunted.*

Tuossa talossa kummittelee.
tuo-ssa talo-ssa kummitt-el-ee
that-INE house-INE ghost-FREQ-PRS
That house is haunted.*

*More like "there is ghosting going on in that house". Swedish has a separate adjective with the meaning "haunted".
zompist
Site Admin
Posts: 2944
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
Location: Right here, probably
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by zompist »

Qwynegold wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:17 pm Does anyone have examples of zero-valent verbs that aren't precipitation verbs? (For this purpose I'll count verbs that only take dummy pronouns as zero-valent.) I only have two examples, from Finnish and Swedish.
Spanish verbs like parecer 'seem'? (Though you could argue that in deep structure "parece que X" derives from "X parece".)
User avatar
KathTheDragon
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
Location: Disunited Kingdom

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

I don't know if this meets your criteria, but Hittite has a set of "impersonal" verbs, many of which are not weather verbs: stuwāri "is exposed"; kistāri "perishes"; lagāri "falls"; miyāri "is born"; tukkāri "is visible"; urāni "burns"; wakkāri "is lacking". I'm not quite clear on their syntax, however, since as their translations suggest, they are still associated with arguments.
Neon Fox
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:55 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Neon Fox »

If I correctly understand what 0-valent means, I think that English to be counts? "It was just as well that..." and similar constructions. But I may well be misunderstanding.
User avatar
Yalensky
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:34 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Yalensky »

Neon Fox wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:13 pm If I correctly understand what 0-valent means, I think that English to be counts? "It was just as well that..." and similar constructions. But I may well be misunderstanding.
English doesn't have zero-valent verbs, hence the dummy subject "it" in your example. Another example: "it's raining", compared to the zero-valent Spanish llueve, one member of the category of precipitation verbs that Qwynegold mentioned.
Neon Fox
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:55 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Neon Fox »

Yalensky wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:19 pm English doesn't have zero-valent verbs, hence the dummy subject "it" in your example. Another example: "it's raining", compared to the zero-valent Spanish llueve, one member of the category of precipitation verbs that Qwynegold mentioned.
Qwynegold wrote:(For this purpose I'll count verbs that only take dummy pronouns as zero-valent.)
User avatar
Yalensky
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:34 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Yalensky »

Neon Fox wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:30 pm
Yalensky wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:19 pm English doesn't have zero-valent verbs, hence the dummy subject "it" in your example. Another example: "it's raining", compared to the zero-valent Spanish llueve, one member of the category of precipitation verbs that Qwynegold mentioned.
Qwynegold wrote:(For this purpose I'll count verbs that only take dummy pronouns as zero-valent.)
Oops, my eyes skipped that. But I don't think it's necessarily relevant to "it was just as well that X" for the same reason that Zompist suggests parecer might not count: it could derive from "X was just as well".
Kuchigakatai
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Kuchigakatai »

Qwynegold wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:17 pm Does anyone have examples of zero-valent verbs that aren't precipitation verbs? (For this purpose I'll count verbs that only take dummy pronouns as zero-valent.) I only have two examples, from Finnish and Swedish.
Latin impersonal verbs of feeling (normally in the 3rd person singular) are nice examples. There's not many of them though, this might be an exhaustive inventory:

Pudet. 'People around are feeling ashamed.'
Piget. '...feeling disgusted.'
Taedet. '...feeling tired (or angry/annoyed, frustrated).'
Pertaedet. '....feeling very tired.'
Miseret. '...feeling pity.'
Paenitet. '...feeling sorry, or feeling angry/annoyed.'

If you want to add the specific person experiencing the feeling, you add them as the accusative direct object. For the thing they're feeling ashamed/disgusted/tired/etc. about, you add a genitive verbal object. When the person is not stated, it tends to be implied that the person experiencing the feeling is "I" or "we".

These verbs really do not take any nominative subject under normal circumstances. Very occasionally, they're attested with the experiencer as the nominative subject with an agreeing verb (ego paeniteō, tū paenitēs...), but this is uncommon.



Also, if you don't mind getting into syntax and possibly involving multiple words, then plenty of languages can use passives and non-finite forms (infinitives, gerunds) to express impersonal notions. Like Latin and its use of the 3SG passive as an impersonal: currendum est 'people around or somebody around should run', egētur 'there is a lack of (many) things', or dīcitur 'it is said (that blah blah...)'; these are all morphological or morphosyntactic passives. And look at English infinitives, to treat a verb phrase as a noun phrase, as in "to live is to risk it all / to err / to suffer". And same goes for ing-forms, as in "laughing makes living easier". The English impersonal construction of using the existential "there be" is interesting in its own right: "there is too much chatting in here", "there's haunting at that house" (even if the latter doesn't sound very idiomatic).

In Spanish you can use the 3SG form with a reflexive pronoun, or more colloquially the bare 3PL form, to express about any impersonal you want while implying some vague type of a human subject. Aquí se pinta (or 3PL aquí pintan) 'people in general paint stuff in here', en esa empresa se corre (or en esa empresa corren) lit. "at that company people in general run" (meaning 'people there are always in a haste), andan hablando lit. "people in general are going around while talking" (meaning 'people have been exchanging rumours').

(I think modern syntacticians would tend to assume the colloquial bare 3PL has an underlying las personas 'the persons/people', but I think that'd be foolish (although typical of them, trying to give a subject to everything, apparently because of English...). Las personas is too marked as [+formal] for colloquial Spanish. In colloquial we say la gente instead, but that's a singular noun phrase and can't be used with 3PL.)

This Spanish construction with the refl. pron. is kind of interesting because it changes the interpretation of verbs that are normally true semantic reflexives with a reflexive pronoun, turning them into non-reflexive semantic transitives. If aquí se mata has a dropped subject, it means 'he/she kills himself/herself here' (commits suicide), but in the impersonal interpretation, it means 'people kill other people here' (no suicide at all). Same goes for verbs that are normally used in the plural with a reflexive pronoun to create a reciprocal: aquí se abraza 'people in general hug each other here' (cf. se abrazan 'they (=some specific people) hug each other').

I can't use this construction to imply inanimate subjects though, and I could only use it for animals at a stretch. For inanimates, I need to say a noun phrase, and then the verb is not zero-valent anymore: en este cuarto se caen las cosas 'in this room, stuff falls down'.
Qwynegold
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

Thanks for all the examples!
zompist wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:57 pm Spanish verbs like parecer 'seem'? (Though you could argue that in deep structure "parece que X" derives from "X parece".)
How is this verb used? I don't know Spanish.
Qwynegold
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

KathTheDragon wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:27 pm I don't know if this meets your criteria, but Hittite has a set of "impersonal" verbs, many of which are not weather verbs: stuwāri "is exposed"; kistāri "perishes"; lagāri "falls"; miyāri "is born"; tukkāri "is visible"; urāni "burns"; wakkāri "is lacking". I'm not quite clear on their syntax, however, since as their translations suggest, they are still associated with arguments.
Hmm, yeah. Maybe there's something similar to Spanish going on?
Ser wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:57 amPudet. 'People around are feeling ashamed.'
Piget. '...feeling disgusted.'
Taedet. '...feeling tired (or angry/annoyed, frustrated).'
Pertaedet. '....feeling very tired.'
Miseret. '...feeling pity.'
Paenitet. '...feeling sorry, or feeling angry/annoyed.'
Hmm, it seems like besides weather verb there's mostly feeling verbs. You could express some of these things (as well as "burns" mentioned by Kath) in Finnish by just a one word sentence, but it would be understood that there is a 1SG subject.
User avatar
Linguoboy
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:00 am
Location: Rogers Park

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Linguoboy »

Qwynegold wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:41 am
zompist wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:57 pm Spanish verbs like parecer 'seem'? (Though you could argue that in deep structure "parece que X" derives from "X parece".)
How is this verb used? I don't know Spanish.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parecer#Spanish
Kuchigakatai
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Kuchigakatai »

Qwynegold wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:41 am
zompist wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:57 pm Spanish verbs like parecer 'seem'? (Though you could argue that in deep structure "parece que X" derives from "X parece".)
How is this verb used? I don't know Spanish.
It's very similar to English "seem", but without the dummy pronoun when it's used with a complement clause.

X parece necesario.
X seems necessary.

Parece que X es necesario.
It seems that X is necessary.
User avatar
Raphael
Posts: 4557
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:36 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Raphael »

Is the construction "whether it is X or whether it is Y" a correct use of "whether" in English?
User avatar
Linguoboy
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:00 am
Location: Rogers Park

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Linguoboy »

Raphael wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:36 amIs the construction "whether it is X or whether it is Y" a correct use of "whether" in English?
Correct but stilted. I googled "whether it is true or whether" and the Ghits were all philosophical or legal texts.
User avatar
Raphael
Posts: 4557
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:36 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Raphael »

Ah, thank you!
Kuchigakatai
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Kuchigakatai »

I was talking to a non-native speaker and the topic of losing weight came up, and he kept referring to it as "loosening weight". I thought that was pretty interesting, because the metaphor makes equal or better sense than "losing weight". When people lose weight, they typically don't want to find it again, unless they did so very involuntarily because they were sick.

It also reminded me that although perder peso (lit. "to lose weight") is common in Spanish, Spanish speakers sometimes complain that it's an anglicism, namely a calque of "to lose weight", and that the only correct idiom is bajar de peso (lit. "to go down in (terms of) weight").
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:45 am
Raphael wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:36 amIs the construction "whether it is X or whether it is Y" a correct use of "whether" in English?
Correct but stilted. I googled "whether it is true or whether" and the Ghits were all philosophical or legal texts.
What’s a Ghit?

(As for the question itself, I agree that that construction is correct but stilted.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
User avatar
Linguoboy
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:00 am
Location: Rogers Park

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by Linguoboy »

bradrn wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:50 pmWhat’s a Ghit?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ghit
Ser wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:17 pmIt also reminded me that although perder peso (lit. "to lose weight") is common in Spanish, Spanish speakers sometimes complain that it's an anglicism, namely a calque of "to lose weight", and that the only correct idiom is bajar de peso (lit. "to go down in (terms of) weight").
TBH, first time I heard perder peso, I thought it was straight-up Spanglish.

The one that really twits my cuñada is tener sexo. She's like, "In Spanish, everyone 'has sex' all the time. It's something you're born with."
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread

Post by bradrn »

Linguoboy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:19 pm
bradrn wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:50 pmWhat’s a Ghit?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ghit
Thanks!
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Post Reply