Re: Vardelm's Scratchpad (NP: Devani OVS order)

[Richard W]

Did Romance flirt with ergativity? The perfect participles in the perfect tenses seem to have gone through a stage where transitive verbs had object-marking and habeo for the auxiliary verb and intransitive verbs has subject-marking and esse for the auxiliary verb..

Maybe? No idea.

The question was semi-rhetorical. I don't think such a split in marking has any implications of ergativity, though it is what one might expect as a result of ergativity.

[Ares Land]

Did Romance flirt with ergativity? The perfect participles in the perfect tenses seem to have gone through a stage where transitive verbs had object-marking and habeo for the auxiliary verb and intransitive verbs has subject-marking and esse for the auxiliary verb..

Selection of auxiliaries in Romance does remind me of active/stative. Reflexes of esse are also used for the passive voice; not all intransitives select esse; but which do was semantically based -- though the exact semantics are disputed, not to mention that these changed over time.
It's worth noting that the use of esse seems to have started with Latin deponent verbs (which are, themselves, relics of an earlier active/stative system).

Martin Maden's Linguistic History of Italian has a very good chapter on this.

[Vardelm]

Reposting for visibility...


Yokai Noun Classes - Version 3

Yet another iteration of noun classes, following up on the 2nd Yokai Noun Classes post. I've rearranged a bunch of stuff and - importantly - reduced the number of classes, or at least the number of class suffixes, which will help with the issue of verbal agreement a little.

The 10 classes that have suffixes 11-15 could probably be considered as just 5 classes with some nouns in those classes being uncountable and therefor don't ever take a plural prefix.


Yokai Noun Classes

Plural Prefix	Suffix	Description
A	01	People: women Animals: birds
B	02	People: leadership, ceremonial, etc. Animals: reptiles
C	03	People: men Animals: furred mammals, crawling insects
D	04	People: outcast men Animals: shelled, flying insects
E	05	People: outcast women Animals: fish, amphibians, marine mammals
A	06	Plants: deciduous trees, bushes Places: forests Body Parts: TBD
B	07	Plants: flowers, seeds, leaves Places: deserts, volcanoes, sky, heavens Body Parts: TBD
C	08	Plants: grasses, mushrooms, moss, lichen, roots, vegetables Places: mountains, hills, plains, caves, fields Body Parts: TBD
D	09	Plants: pines, cactus, pinecones, nuts Places: glaciers, tundra, graves Body Parts: TBD
E	10	Plants: fruit, seaweed, lillies Places: oceans, lakes, rivers Body Parts: TBD
A	11	Abstract: states, qualities
B	12	Abstract: ideas, concepts, emotions
C	13	Abstract: actions
D	14	Abstract: death, darkness
E	15	Abstract: events, time
-	11	Materials: plant People: race, ethnicity
-	12	Materials: flame, coals, cinders, lava, smoke, flesh/meat People: race, ethnicity
-	13	Materials: rock, stone, sand, dirt People: race, ethnicity
-	14	Materials: metal, shell, crystal, ice People: race, ethnicity
-	15	Materials: liquids, food People: race, ethnicity
A	16	Objects: small objects
B	16	Objects: insubstantial objects, man-made non-tool, random-shaped objects
C	16	Objects: large objects, structures
D	16	Objects: tools, hard objects
E	16	Objects: hollow objects, containers, flexible objects

[Rounin Ryuuji]

It struck me as odd having "flowers" and "deserts, volcanoes" in the same class; had you considered one for weeds, or poisonous or undesirable plants, together with undesirable places, like deserts and volcanoes?

[Vardelm]

It struck me as odd having "flowers" and "deserts, volcanoes" in the same class;

I can definitely see it as odd. My thinking was that flowers are an "explosion of color" for plants.

had you considered one for weeds, or poisonous or undesirable plants, together with undesirable places, like deserts and volcanoes?

No, but I like that distinction. I'll add that to my list for rumination.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I was wondering if that might've been the logic (or if Yōkai might've viewed all those things positively where a human being would not).

[Ares Land]

In any case, I like that 'women, fire and dangerous things' approach!

[Vardelm]

I was wondering if that might've been the logic (or if Yōkai might've viewed all those things positively where a human being would not).

They're definitely not going to be happy about a nearby volcano blowing its stack! Overall, I don't think it's a matter of "positive" or "negative". I'd like to probably get + and - in all categories. If you look at everything with plural prefix B, it's about fire, heat, energy, things that are explosive, ephemeral, and/or temporary. (Mind you, this is still in progress, so I don't have that fully consistent & worked out yet!)

In any case, I like that 'women, fire and dangerous things' approach!

Thanks! While I don't have women associated with fire, Dyirbal is definitely an inspiration, especially for the plural "macro-classes". I wanted to get to a point where large groups had a theme in addition to and broader than what the micro-classes do. I feel like this version is starting to zero in on that goal.

[Vardelm]

you could keep the number of combinations down with a direct-inverse system, so that there is only one affix for any combination of class markers and persons.

Bantu language that do have class concord on verb generally merge some of the noun classes for verbal concord.

An idea (though related to the animacy hierarchy and direct-inverse ones): the bulk of transitive sentences are going to involve a member of classes 1 to 5 as subject. And I'd bet most often classes 2 and 3.
What I'd do is have fused markers for the most common combinations (keeping in mind that noun classes can merge for verbal agreement)

I think it has more to do with animacy: agents will predominantly come from the most animate noun classes. If anything, you probably don’t want to merge these noun classes with each other in the agentive argument affix, in order to make the finest distinctions amongst the most frequent cases. (Though you might want to merge them when used as undergoers!)

After mulling this over and creating some (empty) tables, I think I may use a combination of these ideas.

The below table shows that for transitive verbs the animate micro-classes (1-5) would agree with the micro-class, while all of the inanimate classes (6-16) would agree with the macro-class (the plural). The verb suffixes will not distinguish which is referent is the subject vs object or more vs less salient. That work will be done by separate inflections for direct vs inverse.

The "misc factor" listed is a set of inflections I'm not quite prepared to present yet and it's fun to keep an audience in suspense.

Transitivity	Agrees with	# Inflections
Intransitive 1st Person Subject	1st person & misc factor	4
Intransitive 2nd Person Subject	2nd person & misc factor	4
Intransitive 3rd Person Subject	subject noun class	16
	Total Intransitive	24
Transitive 1P vs 2P	1P/2P & misc factor	4
Transitive 1P vs 3P	1P & 3P animate micro class (5) 1P & 3P inanimate macro class (5)	10
Transitive 2P vs 3P	2P & 3P animate micro class (5) 2P & 3P inanimate macro class (5)	10
Transitive 3P vs 3P	3P animate micro-class & 3P animate micro class (15) 3P animate micro-class & 3P inanimate macro class (15) 3P inanimate macro-class & 3P inanimate macro class (15)	45
	Total Transitive	69
	Total	93

With this strategy, I might expand micro-class 16 to 5 classes so that there is a different suffix for all of those. That wouldn't impact the number of verbal inflections for agreement since those would be inanimate and therefor agree with their macro-class.

For transitives with 2 3rd person referents, if those are of the same class I might just use the same suffix as the intransitive agreement. That would cut my number down to 59 transitive inflections and 83 total.

93 or 83 still seems like a large number, but that includes both intransitive & transitive. The numbers I posted before were just transitive! This system seems like it's starting to get into a plausible range. There won't be a whole lot of other verb inflections, which helps too.

[Vardelm]

Yokai Noun Class Suffix Trial

I came up with suffixes for classes 1-5 (people/animals), plus class 11 (material/people). I think I like it, at least for the moment.


Stem word: yoka- "Yokai people or things related to them"

Class	Suffix	Example
1	-shi	yokashi (yokai woman)
2	-deon	yokadeon (yokai... elder? king? queen? maybe not used?)
3	-sha	yokasha (yokai man)
4	-oni	yokaoni (yokai man of lower caste)
5	-ida	yokaida (yokai woman of lower caste)
11	-i	yokai (the people/race in general)

Eventually I'd like to have each suffix take some different forms due to the stem. Maybe some consonant harmory? Dunno.

Also, I'm am conscious that the idea of using real world terms ("yokai" in this case) as an in-world term might not be the best practice. At this point, I'll run with it since all of these langs are still in their early stages of development. I'd be curious to hear what others think of that issue.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

It makes some sense so far (and some of the morphemes are looking familiar).

So do you have higher ranks that are yokara, yokaga, yokalao, mahayokalao, yokadain, mahayokadain?

[Vardelm]

It makes some sense so far (and some of the morphemes are looking familiar).

Good & yep.

So do you have higher ranks that are yokara, yokaga, yokalao, mahayokalao, yokadain, mahayokadain?

No, but I like the idea enough to consider it. Where are you pulling those morphemes from, out of curiosity?

[Rounin Ryuuji]

So do you have higher ranks that are yokara, yokaga, yokalao, mahayokalao, yokadain, mahayokadain?

No, but I like the idea enough to consider it. Where are you pulling those morphemes from, out of curiosity?
[/quote]
It's a video game joke — Final Fantasy (also Kingdom Hearts) spells rank Whatever, Whateverara, Whateveraga, also Whateveraja; with modifications based on the sounds of words (Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga, Aero, Aera/Aerora, Aega/Aeroga, Water, Watera, Watega, and so on). Kingdom Hearts sometimes uses -(a)gun or -(a)za rather than -(a)ja at fourth-tier (which isn't common to have in either games, most use three except for healing, which sometimes do Cure, Cura, Curaga, Curaja, and others Cure, Cura, Curada, Curaga, which is how they normally go in Japanese (localisation complicates many things). The Japanese version of Chrono Trigger also does Whatever, Whateverga, but the third tier is some other word, and this was localised out in English.

The others are from Shin Megami Tensei and Persona (high-level spells are usually suffixed with -dyne — Kana spellings indicate a reading /dain/ — and area-of-effect spells prefixed with ma-, mar-, or maha). The -lao is from agilao (second-level fire spell), but in this second series, the suffixes are more random and fluid for second-level spells, cf.: Zio, Mazio; Zionga, Mazionga; Ziodyne, Maziodyne (Lightning); but Agi, Maragi; Agilao, Maragion; Agidyne, Maragydine (Fire); Bufu, Mabufu; Bufula, Mabufula; Bufudyne, Mabufudyne (Ice); Kouha, Makouha; Kouga, Makouga; Kougaon, Makougaon (Light); the last one appears analogical with the ultimate spells Megido, Megidola, Megidolaon (all area-of-effect anyway).

I'm not sure why they do this, but I've often wondered, and found such systems interesting. The original Final Fantasy is described as an "unlicensed Dungeons and Dragons product" (see the art for the original game, and then look at more recent releases for a very, very odd evolution), so I'm surprised it didn't start with similar names (unlike the much-more-anime-from-the-beginning Tales series, which has your standard "Fireball, Lightning, Air Thrust, Ice Tornado, Earth Glaive" and some weird ones like "Extension, Spread Blue, Brilliant Lance, God Press, Indignation (the last one being the "iconic" one)" that are Wasei-eigo of varying quality.

This wouldn't fit phonologically, but Fire Emblem also does the affix-gradation, with Fire, Elfire, Arcfire (in Japanese, the third-tier seems to be Gigafire instead, changed in localisations as it doesn't fit the Pseudomediaeval/Pseudoantiquity setting), or the ultimate spells in one title (usually either Norse words like Ragnarok, Fimbulvetr, Brynhildr, Gleipnir, or Naglfar; or more Waasei-Eigo like Forblaze, or very random things like Cymbeline) being Rexaura, Rexbolt, Rexflame, Rexcalibur. It often also suffixes wild spells with -calibur — Aircalibur, Grafcalibur, Excalibur, Gigascalibur and the above Rexcalibur all being wind-aligned. It probably just sounds cool and foreign or something.

[Vardelm]

Lots...

HAH! Love it! I'm not super familiar with FF or the other material you mention, which is why I did recognize it. I thought maha- might be from Indian langs, but wasnt sure. I did mine World of Warcraft for some codas, but not much. I don't think any show up here.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

Lots...

HAH! Love it! I'm not super familiar with FF or the other material you mention, which is why I did recognize it. I thought maha- might be from Indian langs, but wasnt sure. I did mine World of Warcraft for some codas, but not much. I don't think any show up here.

Maha and Agi are, I'm pretty sure, from Sanskrit (Persona also has Wind-aligned magic Garu, Magaru, Garula, Magarula, Garudyne, Magarudine, which is probably from the mythical creature Garuda. You likely, consequently, weren't wrong. I simply connected Yōkai with Japanese demons with games involving demons, which are made by Japanese people, and the suffixing system, and... you get the idea.

[Vardelm]

Yokai Noun Class Plural Prefix Trial

1st cut on plural prefixes.


Stem word: yoka- "Yokai people or things related to them"

Class	Singular Suffix	Singular	Plural Prefix	Plural	Translation
1	-shi	yokashi	we-	weyokashi	yokai woman
2	-deon	yokadeon	o(k)-	oyokadeon	yokai elder
3	-sha	yokasha	da-	dayokasha	yokai man
4	-oni	yokaoni	i(n)-	inyokaoni	lower caste yokai man
5	-ida	yokaida	mu-	muyokaida	lower caste yokai woman
11	-i	yokai	-	-	yokai (the people/race in general)

[Vardelm]

Yokai Noun Class Forms

Yay! I finally have forms for all of the noun classes worked out. Yeah, it's still subject to change (what isn't in conlanging?) but it feels like a solid start. There will eventually be adjective, genitive, locative/prepositional, and intransitive verbal forms. Per usual, my example words are made up on the spot, so those are likely to be completely reworked down the road. With at least 1 example per class, at least it's progress.

Yokai Noun Classes

Class	Usage	Singular	Plural	Examples
01	People: women Animals: birds	-shi	wu- -sho	yokashi / wuyokasho : yokai woman tinshi / wutinsho : bird untshaitinshi / wuntshaitinsho : song-bird
02	People: leadership, ceremonial, etc. Animals: reptiles	-(d)eo	o- -(d)i	yokadeo / oyokadi : yokai elder untshaideo / okuntshaidi : singer washadeo / owashadi : snake sizhodeo / osizhodi : male lion
03	People: men Animals: furred mammals, crawling insects	-sha	dai- -shu	yokasha / daiyokashu : yokai man jaldasha / daijaldashu : male dwarf (seldom used) tinsha / daitinshu : flightless bird (ostrich, etc.) sizhosha / daisizhoshu : lion, lioness miutsisha / daimiutsishu : centipede
04	People: outcast men Animals: shelled, flying insects	-oni	ai(n)- -na	yokaoni / aiyokana : yokai lower caste man jaldoni / aijaldana : a dwarf phanioni / aiphanina : crab amchioni / ainamchina : butterfly
05	People: outcast women Animals: fish, amphibians, marine mammals	-inu	lu- -ne	yokainu / luyokane : yokai lower caste woman jaldinu / lujaldane : female dwarf (seldom used) yonsuinu / luyonsone : salmon gaiwainu / lugaiwane : frog sudzaninu / lusudzane : otter
06	Plants: deciduous trees, bushes Places: forests Body Parts: TBD	-zen	wu- -zen	akishuzen / wakishuzen : forest glade chaonazen / wuchaozen : apple tree
07	Plants: flowers, seeds, leaves Places: deserts, volcanoes, sky, heavens Body Parts: TBD	-xio	o- -xi	kaonxio / okaonxi : cloud yashoxio / oyashoxi : volcano
08	Plants: grasses, mushrooms, moss, lichen, roots, vegetables Places: mountains, hills, plains, caves, fields Body Parts: TBD	-da	dai- -du	yashoda / daiyashodu : mountain dzukoda / daidzukodu : grotto
09	Plants: pines, cactus, pinecones, nuts Places: glaciers, tundra, graves Body Parts: TBD	-dai	ai(n)- -da	tsiungdai / aitsiungda : pine tree bichiangdai / aibichiangda : mountaintop snow/glacier
10	Plants: fruit, seaweed, lillies Places: oceans, lakes, rivers Body Parts: TBD	-xun	lu- -xun	chaonxun / luchaonxun : apple mupiangxun / lumupiangxun : pond
11	Objects: small objects	-bue	wu- -bo	kiolbue / wukiolbo : pebbles
12	Objects: insubstantial objects, man-made non-tool, random-shaped objects	-tsong	o- -tsong	anzatsong / okanzatsong : saddle
13	Objects: large objects, structures	-a	dai- -u	kiola / daikiolu : boulders
14	Objects: tools, hard objects	-tsing	ai(n)- -tsing	kioltsing / aikioltsing : rocks, stones
15	Objects: hollow objects, containers, flexible objects	-biu	lu- -be	bunobiu / lubunobe : bag
16	Abstract: states, qualities	-i	wu- -o	jaldi : shortness
17	Abstract: ideas, concepts, emotions	-o	o- -i	muankao / omuanki : dream
18	Abstract: actions	-jia	dai- -ju	untshaijia / daiyuntshaiju : singing, song
19	Abstract: death, darkness	-(i)n	ai(n)- -(i)n	ikamun / ainikamun : shadow
20	Abstract: events, time	-fu	lu- -fe	bichiangfu / lubichiangfe : avalanche
21	Materials: plant People: race, ethnicity	-i	-	yokai : yokai bunui : cloth
22	Materials: flame, coals, cinders, lava, smoke, flesh/meat People: race, ethnicity	-o	-	yonso : cooked salmon phanio : cooked crab
23	Materials: rock, stone, sand, dirt People: race, ethnicity	-jia	-	kioljia : rock, stone
24	Materials: metal, shell, crystal, ice People: race, ethnicity	-(i)n	-	jaldin : dwarves xianun : snow
25	Materials: liquids, food People: race, ethnicity	-fu	-	yonsofu : salmon, raw salmon phanifu : crab, raw crab chaonafu : apple, sliced or ingredient

[Vardelm]

Yokai Vowel Mutations (for suffixes)

I think I have a system of vowel changes / suffix mechanics worked out that gives me results I like. In creating class suffixes for other forms, such as for intransitive verbs, I quickly realized I didn't want to use the same suffix for both noun & verb since that leads to rhyming. Just..... ick. Not an aesthetic I want in general. It's fine for a few classes & forms, but not every single one.

When a suffix is added, vowels ending the stem will interact with vowels starting the suffix. There are 4 levels of suffix vowels:

1) epenthetic vowel (V) - The vowel on the suffix is used only in the case where it's needed for syllabification constraints.

2) weak vowel -V - If the stem ends in a monophthong, all vowels are kept. If this creates an illegal diphthong, it is changed to a nearby monophthong or diphthong per the "vowel combinations" table below. Diphthongs "mutate" such that both of the vowels move in the direction of the suffix vowel (which is not kept aside from it's influence on the diphthong). The mutations follow a ↔ e ↔ i ↔ u ↔ o ↔ a in either direction: whichever is the shortest route to the suffix vowel doing the mutation. The various "mutations" diagrams show the pathways. Blue arrows are "weak mutations".

3) moderate vowel +V - Same as for weak vowels above except that monophthongs also mutate in the direction of the suffix vowel. Red arrows in the "mutations" diagrams below are "moderate mutations".

4) strong vowel =V - The stem's final vowels are completely elided & replaced with the initial vowels of the suffix.


Vowel Combinations



I-mutation



E-mutation



A-mutation



O-mutation



U-mutation

[Vardelm]

Here, smell this and tell me if it's rotten....

I'm working on adjective forms for my Yokai classes. The basic noun formation is:

Stem		Class Suffix		Noun
yoka-	+	-shi	=	yokashi (Yokai woman)

I have a possessive form that adds a -ul suffix, which can modify the vowel of the class suffix a bit.

Noun		Possessive Suffix		Possessive Form/Case
yokashi	+	-ul	=	yokashiol

What I'm considering is an adjective form that infixes -ur- into the class suffix.

Noun		Adjectival Suffix		Adjective Form
yokashi	+	-ur-	=	yokashuri

An alternate idea is to suffix -r plus the same vowel that is used in the plural noun form.

Noun		Adjectival Suffix		Adjective Form
yokashi	+	-ri / -re / -ra / -ro / -ru	=	yokashiro

I think the 2nd option probably passes muster a little better, and I do like having the tie in back to the plural noun form. However, I generally like the forms from option #1 better.

Thoughts? Opinions? Scathing criticism? Ennui?

[Vijay]

Wait, is it the class suffix that changes in form, or can it (also) be the possessive suffix itself?