Twin Aster

Conworlds and conlangs
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Qwynegold wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:01 amWhoa, they both became totally unrecognizable.
Yay!
Qwynegold wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:01 amBut how come you chose a romlang spelling for Central Tim Ar?
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:22 amMy guess was because it looks nice.
That would be why. Just preference.
Ares Land wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:21 amThumbs up!

(To the defense of romlang orthographies, they do give pretty good hints on how words are supposed to be pronounced.)
Thank you!

----

I think I have some decent changes to Western Tim Ar:

m → w
m̩ n̩ ŋ̩ ɹ̩ l̩ → u a i e o
Nasal assimilation
θ ð → f v
ɹ l → s ɬ / _#
æ → je
n t d s z ɬ ɮ ɹ l → ɲ tʲ dʲ ʃ ʒ ɬʲ ɮʲ j ʎ / _{e,i}
h → ʃ / _E
ø y → e i
ɤ ɯ → ə ɨ
t tʲ d dʲ → ts tʃ dz dʒ / _{i,ɨ,u}
i ɨ u → e ə o / #(C)_(C)(C)a
i…i ɨ…ɨ u…u → i…je ɨ…jə u…jo
{xt,kt} → ks
hV → Ø / _…V
h → Ø
penult deletion in trisyllables+
i ɨ u → ja ja wa / [- cons + hi]…_
{ew,əw} {iw,ɨw} → ow uw
Initial high vowels add their tone to the second syllable, then delete
Same V, different tone → contour tone
{x,ɣ} → w / _%
ɬʲ ɮʲ → ʃ ʒ
a…a → a…e
x ɣ → k g / _V
e…o ə…o → e…we ə…wə / _(C)#
i ɨ u → e ə o / ʕ_, _ʕ
ʕ → j

mkíḫ [m̩gíx] 'group of provinces' → [gjǎw] gyǎu
hagm [hàʕm̩] 'region' → [jò] jo
Tim Ar [tìm àɹ] → [tʃòwàs] Tšowas
kámr [kǽmɹ̩] 'city' → [kjówè] kyówe
iteĝ [ìdèŋ] 'table' → [dʲèŋ] jeng
haðál [hàðál] 'person' → [váɬ] váł
kuasa [kùàzà] 'landmark' → [kùàzè] kuaze
síkna [sígnà] 'white' → [ʃégnà] šégna
hún [hún] 'black' → [ún] ún
kiĝ [kìŋ] 'red' → [kìŋ] king
ténḫo nihít [ténɣò nìhít] 'ninety' → [tʲéŋgòɲʃjét] céngoñšyét
ténḫo [ténɣò] 'one hundred' → [tʲéŋgwè] céngwe
ténḫo kahál [ténɣò kàhál] 'one hundred ten' → [tʲéŋgòkáɬ] céngokáł
kátgïn [kádʕɯ̀n] 'wallet, purse' → [kádjə̀n] kádyën
îĝté [ɯ́ŋdé] 'snack, light meal' → [ɲdʲé] ñjé
naá [nàá] 'bread' → [nǎ]
höhsë [hø̀hsɤ̀] 'four' → [ʃèsə̀] šesë
uḫtúð [ùxtúθ] 'destroy' → [ksjǒf] ksyǒf
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Think I did some good changes to Proto-Southern Tim Ar…

m̩ n̩ ŋ̩ ɹ̩ l̩ → mə nə ŋə ɹə lə
m n ŋ → b d g
k g → tʃ dʒ / _E
V{x,ɣ,h} → Vː
h → j / #_
{θ,ð} → n
VːV → Vː, tone retracts to previous syllable
C → [+ vc] / V_V
ɣ → j
b d g → β ɹ j / V_V
ə → i / CC_#
ə → Ø
æ → jo
j → Ø / {tʃ,dʒ}_
ɯ ɤ → ə a / a…_
ɯ ɤ → i e / B…_
ɯ ɤ → jə ja
ø y → jaw jew (vel sim.)
jj → dʒ
e i → ja je / _(C)(C)j
Vʕ → Vˀ / _C
ʕV → Vˀ
b d g → β ɹ j / V_V
a (→ ɐj) → oj / a…_
V → Ø / _V
{ɹ,l} → n / _#

mkíḫ [m̩gíx] 'group of provinces' → [bjíː] byíí
hagm [hàʕm̩] 'region' → [hàːˀβ] haaˀv
Tim Ar [tìm àɹ] → [tìβàn] Tivan
kámr [kǽmɹ̩] 'city' → [tʃóbɹí] chóbrí
iteĝ [ìdèŋ] 'table' → [ìɹèg] ireg
haðál [hàðál] 'person' → [jànójn] yanóin
kuasa [kùàzà] 'landmark' → [kàzòj] kazoi
síkna [sígnà] 'white' → [sígdà] sígda
hún [hún] 'black' → [húd] húd
kiĝ [kìŋ] 'red' → [tʃìg] chig
ténḫo nihít [ténɣò nìhít] 'ninety' → [tjádjòɹíːt] tyádyoríít
ténḫo [ténɣò] 'one hundred' → [tjádjò] tyádyo
ténḫo kahál [ténɣò kàhál] 'one hundred ten' → [tjádjòjáːn] tyádyoyáán
kátgïn [kádʕɯ̀n] 'wallet, purse' → [káɹə̀ˀd] kárəˀd
îĝté [ɯ́ŋdé] 'snack, light meal' → [jə́gdé] yә́gdé
naá [nàá] 'bread' → [dój] dói
höhsë [hø̀hsɤ̀] 'four' → [dʒaːwzjòj] yaauzyòi
uḫtúð [ùxtúθ] 'destroy' → [ùːɹún] uurún
Qwynegold
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Qwynegold »

If you want some critique:
Man in Space wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:53 pm m̩ n̩ ŋ̩ ɹ̩ l̩ → u a i e o
You're turning a velar consonant into /i/??
Man in Space wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:53 pmn t d s z ɬ ɮ ɹ l → ɲ tʲ dʲ ʃ ʒ ɬʲ ɮʲ j ʎ / _{e,i}
I would expect these sound changes to also happen at _{y, ø}.

Also, I noticed that your syllabic consonants don't carry tone. How come?

You've managed to turn this language unrecognizable too.
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Qwynegold wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:43 am If you want some critique:
Man in Space wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:53 pm m̩ n̩ ŋ̩ ɹ̩ l̩ → u a i e o
You're turning a velar consonant into /i/??
It's actually precedented — Middle Chinese */ʃˠæŋ/ > Japanese /seː/, by way of /sei~sej/, which the Kana orthography still reflects; Reflexes of Middle Chinese terminal */ŋ/ in Old and Middle Japanese will usually be */u~w/ or */i~j/, usually conditioned by the preceding vowel. I could see a syllabic velar nasal doing the same, either being coloured by surrounding vowels (though vocalisation to /u/ would probably be more likely directly), or by way of /ŋ/ > /ɲ/ > /j~i/ (which is what I suspect probably happened in the Japanese example). A shift of /g/ > /j/ is also fairly common cross-linguistically, I think?
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Qwynegold »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:13 am It's actually precedented — Middle Chinese */ʃˠæŋ/ > Japanese /seː/, by way of /sei~sej/, which the Kana orthography still reflects; Reflexes of Middle Chinese terminal */ŋ/ in Old and Middle Japanese will usually be */u~w/ or */i~j/, usually conditioned by the preceding vowel. I could see a syllabic velar nasal doing the same, either being coloured by surrounding vowels (though vocalisation to /u/ would probably be more likely directly), or by way of /ŋ/ > /ɲ/ > /j~i/ (which is what I suspect probably happened in the Japanese example). A shift of /g/ > /j/ is also fairly common cross-linguistically, I think?
Oh, I see. It's just that he chose a different vowel for each of the five consonants, so then I would've rather expected ŋ → o.
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Qwynegold wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:43 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:13 am It's actually precedented — Middle Chinese */ʃˠæŋ/ > Japanese /seː/, by way of /sei~sej/, which the Kana orthography still reflects; Reflexes of Middle Chinese terminal */ŋ/ in Old and Middle Japanese will usually be */u~w/ or */i~j/, usually conditioned by the preceding vowel. I could see a syllabic velar nasal doing the same, either being coloured by surrounding vowels (though vocalisation to /u/ would probably be more likely directly), or by way of /ŋ/ > /ɲ/ > /j~i/ (which is what I suspect probably happened in the Japanese example). A shift of /g/ > /j/ is also fairly common cross-linguistically, I think?
Oh, I see. It's just that he chose a different vowel for each of the five consonants, so then I would've rather expected ŋ → o.
For /ŋ/, the vowel that comes most readily to me is something like [ə~ʌ], so /i/ isn't necessarily what I would've expected either, but I thought it worth noting that it is attested; I would also expect /l/ > /u/, but I also speak a variety of English where terminal laterals are highly velarised; though I don't have a completed /l/ > /w/ shift myself, if I had children, or any intention of having them, I would expect them to have it in a generation or two, so there is a bit of a bias there. I do, of course, also think having an intermediate palatal nasal emerge would make the change far more plausible.

Edit: Typo
Last edited by Rounin Ryuuji on Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bradrn
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by bradrn »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:04 pm
Qwynegold wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:43 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:13 am It's actually precedented — Middle Chinese */ʃˠæŋ/ > Japanese /seː/, by way of /sei~sej/, which the Kana orthography still reflects; Reflexes of Middle Chinese terminal */ŋ/ in Old and Middle Japanese will usually be */u~w/ or */i~j/, usually conditioned by the preceding vowel. I could see a syllabic velar nasal doing the same, either being coloured by surrounding vowels (though vocalisation to /u/ would probably be more likely directly), or by way of /ŋ/ > /ɲ/ > /j~i/ (which is what I suspect probably happened in the Japanese example). A shift of /g/ > /j/ is also fairly common cross-linguistically, I think?
Oh, I see. It's just that he chose a different vowel for each of the five consonants, so then I would've rather expected ŋ → o.
For /ŋ/, the vowel that comes most readily to me is something like [ə~ʌ], so /i/ isn't necessarily what I would've expected either, but I thought it worth noting that it is attested; I would also expect /l/ > /u/, but I also speak a variety of English where terminal laterals are highly velarise; though I don't have a completed /l/ > /w/ shift myself, if I had children, or any intention of having them, I would expect them to have it in a generation or two, so there is a bit of a bias there. I do, of course, also think having an intermediate palatal nasal emerge would make the change far more plausible.
If it matters, I have a completed [l] → [ɫ] shift, followed by [ɫ] → [ɯ~u] in the nucleus.
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Qwynegold
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Qwynegold »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:04 pm For /ŋ/, the vowel that comes most readily to me is something like [ə~ʌ], so /i/ isn't necessarily what I would've expected either, but I thought it worth noting that it is attested;
Yeah, but that one was conditioned by surrounding vowels, whereas in OP's conlang it would happen in any environment. I was thinking that the velar consonants would probably turn into back vowels, and nasal consonants could maybe turn into a lowered vowel because of the lowered soft palate during the articulation of a nasal, or something... :mrgreen:
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Quick note on CT: Might make a small Northern branch too with the dentals shifting to /x/.

--------

Because it's about time I tackle this: Täptäg.

I want to get to this:

/m m̥ n n̥ ɲ ɲ̊/
/p pʲ pʰ pʲʰ b bʲ b̥ b̥ʲ t tʲ tʰ tʲʰ d dʲ d̥ d̥ʲ c cʰ ɟ ɟ̊ k kʰ g g̊/
/s z ʃ ʒ/
/w j/

/u o ɑ æ e i/

Let's see if we can.

I just randomly came up with two word shapes I like: bhorgeat /b̥oɾɟɑt/ and geuha /ɟuɦɑ/. This in addition to Täptäg /tæptæg/ itself.

I think it'd be amusing if the original language was obligate CV, because I want to get clusters out of it.

m n
p b t d k kʷ g gʷ
s
ɹ

a ɛ e ɪ i ɔ o ʊ u

V → Ø / #_
s → h
i ɪ u ʊ → e ɛ o ɔ / a…_
V → Ø / V{r,m,n}_C
CVR → CʰV / _%
ɹ → n
i u e o → ɪ ʊ ɛ ɔ / _a
p b t d k g kʷ gʷ → ɸ β s ɾ x ɣ xʷ ɣʷ / V_{e,o,i,u}
ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ → e o i u
Vowel affectation in stressed syllables
- i u → e o / when an a is in the following syllable
- a → æ if conditioned by front vowels, ɑ otherwise
- e…e i…i o…o u…u → depends on the stressed syllable but the outcomes for the stressed syllables are je ji jo ju
T K → Tʲ Ḱ / _{i,j}
{K,Ḱ}ʷ → P
[-vc]V[-vc] [+vc]V[+vc] → [-vc]V[+vc] [+vc]V[-vc] / _V#
Strong syncope: Every second syllable deletes
h → ɦ

I'll probably have to come up with some other changes later to make the spelling system work right…might have velars obligatorily palatalize before front vowels, just preserving the contrast in front of the back vowels? Might have the palatalized labials affricate instead like in Ryukyuan…

*buɹadigiatʊ → buɹdegɪatɔ → b̥uɾegɪatɔ → b̥uɾegiato → b̥uɾeɟato → b̥uɾeɟɑto → b̥uɾɟɑt → b̥oɾɟɑt bhorgjat
*gɪusua → giuhʊa → ɟuhoa → ɟuhoɑ → ɟuɦɑ gjuha
*tapɪtakɛ → tapitake → tæpitæke → tæpitæge → tæptæg Täptäg

So these changes as stated should give something like this:

/m m̥ n n̥ ɲ ɲ̊/ m mh n nh ñ ñh
/p pʰ b b̥ t tʲ tʰ tʲʰ d dʲ d̥ d̥ʲ c cʰ ɟ ɟ̊ k kʰ g g̊/ p ph b bh t tj th tjh d dj dh djh kj kjh gh gjh k kh g gh
/tʃ tʃʰ dʒ d̥ʒ/ č čh j jh
/s ʃ ɦ/ s š h
/ɾ ɾ̥/ r rh
/w j/ v j

/u o ɑ æ e i/ u o a ä e i

/d̥ʲɑngi/ djhangi
/estʲʰuɹi/ estjhuri
/mɑɲ̊æ/ mañhä
/n̥ostʰuɾɑ/ nhosthura
/dʒægɑɲ̊ɟɑn/ jägangjan
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Timekeeping on Ítöð

The two most important ways of reckoning time on Ítöð are the way the Tim Ar do it and the way international diplomacy does it.

The Tim Ar

The Tim Ar reckon years using the Count of Yar Yereu (CYY). In this scheme, there's one special, independent day (Tékða m Hëkî Éakar ü) at the beginning of the year; otherwise, there are 28 nine-day weeks:
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Nðún
Kaskëman
Huhkëti m Höur
Maktáĝ
Ekolír
Łakłé
Këhírłé
Lagomür
Kélesłé
Këtrakimür
Geðre ĝ Ki
Ehsúnúk
N’éhsë
Ḫetl Hákl
Ḫetl Höl
Geðre n Gé
Torłé
Öshë Msaĝ
Nêkurułé
Íormür
Łékahál
Môh Łaĝë
Łagîl
Ḫrmagłé
Łénëð
Ïhköhnir
Ĝel Ïmûr
Łémrúk
(If you were wondering, these are split into six seasons: Kékhir, the spring melt; kmhéstag, sowing season; nturuḫ, growing season; ḫihtî, summer; gastolon, harvest; mhárê, autumn; and mháríe, winter. Each is four weeks long; however, dates are given with reference to the weeks they occur in, not the seasons.)

An extra day, Decades' Day (Tékða n Arikhëkî ar) is intercalated every ten years. There is a year zero; the first day of year zero corresponds to 18 October, 1342 AD.

Smaller-scale timekeeping follows a system called the March of Ndai Ndai:

1 agêr = 1/36 solar day = 43.53 minutes (this is split into three periods of 12 hours, namely A, B, and C; the day roughly starts at sunrise, which is about "6:00 AM")
1 ḫu = 1/48 agêr = 54.417 seconds
1 narihkihê = 1/60 ḫu = 0.907 seconds

So a full date and time might be 4B:42:30, 8 Öshë Msaĝ, 477 CYY.

Diplomacy

The way it's done in international diplomacy is a bit crazier. One way the other countries were able to fight the Tim Ar cultural hegemony was by convincing everyone to use the Red Death reckoning. This has the advantage of being tied to a global disaster, so it doesn't necessarily favor anyone over anyone else, but has the disadvantage of being completely batshit. Also, the Tim Ar names for the time divisions are the ones that got used anyway, not the original ones from whatever southern language this bastard system came from, so…Pyrrhic victory there. In-universe, no one's quite sure where this calendar came from other than somewhere in the southwest and that its zero year happened during the time the Red Death was starting to get really bad there.

In Red Death reckoning, there are three concurrent cycles, one using years as the units (the decadal cycle) and two using days (the short and long cycles). Each year in a decade has a name, and each day has a binomial designator that is a function of its position in the year vis-à-vis the short and long cycles. The Ítöðian year has about 253.1 days; the nearest integer is 253, which has a prime factorization of 11 · 23, which is the length of the short and long cycles respectively.

The decadal cycle, or arikrtûk, is as follows:
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Ĝatuolú
Méuétuále
Laki
Olsuókuóno
Tuétiáĝa
Iólisku
Takuéluí
Lútlú
Aklákéna
Émĝetuákué
It is the decadal that gets numbered; e.g., there is no year 500 RD, but there is a 50 Émĝetuákué RD.

It gets worse. The short cycle, këkéð kahál 'short week', is an eleven-day cycle:
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Lumulúána
Tuákuétele
Náĝuála
Ititle
Kuátlola
Luíkina
Enokuó
Maháalki
Listoloke
Iĝuántuáa
Mekilí
The long cycle, ĝênmansor, lasts twenty-three days:
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Hestekí
Koluóhua
Makuáli
Ekokuálo
Suítuáĝo
Kakaluógo
Malkeniá
Óiomalakué
Tuóntuéĝe
Muatuálki
Heleĝkuí
Milmeuána
Luúhuúski
Kéiolekolo
Mulusuáku
Hantakué
Úiluúsku
Uókiólalo
Mískuí
Hatalakuána
Héikuéma
Kékuólokí
Untúksiálkuí
The short and long cycles run concurrently, incrementing by one each day. The year starts out with both cycles in sync, so the first day of the year is Lumulúána Hestekí, the second is Tuákuétele Koluóhua, and so on. The twelfth day is Lumulúána Milmeuána; the first cycle has reset whilst the second is only about halfway through. Likewise, the twenty-fourth day is Tuákuétele Hestekí, as the second cycle has reset. This continues throughout the year until the last day of the year, Mekilí Untúksiálkuí.

After Émĝetuákué Mekilí Untúksiálkuí, a leap day (Téluána) is added. This is not considered to be part of any year or decade and serves as an end to the current decadal.

There is no year zero in Red Death reckoning, but there is a cycle zero. Cycle zero appears to have been tied to the infection and loss of a major population center; 0 Ĝatuolú Lumulúána Hestekí RD in Julian years corresponds to June 6, 812 AD. As in zompist's books, you can use negatives to refer to cycles prior to cycle zero: -15 Aklákéna Enokuó Mulusuáku RD, for instance.

Smaller-scale timekeeping is handled using the March of Ndai Ndai.

The Tlar Kyanà

The Tlar Kyanà want to be different, naturally, so usually they use the Count of Ô Bzyam (CÔB). The CÔB system divides the year into 50 weeks with five days in them, and these into 10 five-week months. Sharp-eyed readers might realize this is 255 days, not 253; the calendar eventually goes out of sync. This sucks, but then again so does just about everything with the Tlar Kyanà.
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Ôaiay
Gzyǐn
Áiủ
Nẻn Mêakyȁ
Ủ Giòahn
Ōgǎr
Ngéanr
È Kảntlôa
Kyoaglỉ
Iâr Lǒhnéa
Dates are written [month] [week]:[day], so È Kảntlôa 1:5, 255 CÔB. The Tlar Kyanà did not have the good sense to include a year zero. The first day of 1 CÔB in Julian reckoning was 1 December, 880 AD.

As if this wasn't bad enough, there are two smaller-scale timekeeping methods. In Muy Baon and Nguyna, they use the utterly ridiculous É Tuôy time:

1 gyỏ = 1/25 solar day = 62.688 minutes
1 ȍa = 1/4 gyỏ = 15.672 minutes
1 zyủyn = 1/6 ȍa = 2.612 minutes
1 tlāyná = 1/50 zyủyn = 3.1344 seconds
1 ǔl = 1/6 tlāyná = 0.5224 seconds

Whereas in Nikyuwar, they use the much more sane system of Bor Gyana:

1 bzyěahné = 1/25 solar day = 62.688 minutes
1 luôan = 1/50 bzyěahné = 75.2016 seconds
1 hủia = 1/50 luôan = 1.504 seconds

The Empire of the Violet Sun

Not to be outdone, the Empire of the Violet Sun uses Wekoq Reckoning (WR), which divides the year into 21 twelve-day weeks. There are seven months; an extra week is added to the fourth month every twelve years.
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N̥omiˤ
Oˤqʰen
ʜwax
B̥uˤqlus
N̥oŋ̊aˤmda
Law
M̥iˤm̥iˤ
Again, no one had the good sense to include a year zero. 1 N̥omiˤ, 1 WR is 11 September, 8 AD Julian.

Smaller-scale timekeeping is handled by Üsüm timekeeping:

1 matl = 1/18 solar day = 87.067 minutes
1 okulli = 1/36 matl = 145.111 seconds
1 lektlil = 1/72 okulli = 2.015 seconds

The Caber

The Caber sphere of influence uses the Count of Cagracala (CC) to reckon years. Here we have seven months of six six-day weeks; an extra day is tacked onto the end of the year every six years.
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Camhir
Basci
Ưǧoac
Ćumep
Ter
Śaher
Biơc
Again, no one had the good sense to include a year zero. Camhir 1, 1 CC is 14 February, 1232 BC Julian. Years before 1 CC are positive integers AC (ante Cagracalam), e.g. Biơc 10, 40 AC.

The Caber use the March of Ndai Ndai to measure smaller units of time.

The Mziddyun

The Mziddyun Sprachbund has, over time, grown sufficiently close that they use a unified method of timekeeping. The Gentian Way (GW) was developed by the Archaic Wokratak and includes eighteen months of fourteen days each, comprising two weeks of seven days:
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Dakąrą (rainstorms
Ġahit (~ ‘two’)
Siltales (blooming)
Ḅoḅñąkkę (migratory bird spp.)
Kokpąssę (of flamingos)
Takit (trading)
Oklasąhę (of dowries)
Katąl (plant sp.)
Pophąttę (‘of carrion birds’)
Ręwammę (‘of drive/belligerence’)
Nęsam (‘wanderlust’)
Sętam (~ ‘find a meaning’)
Kęrtąkkę (~ ‘command’)
Birak (‘sleeping-place’)
Sęrag (~ ‘turning black’)
Kihmahes (‘drying up’)
Ikkoliġ (starving)
Ondakro (immediate future jussive ‘may it rain’)
A bonus month, Ḅaḅaklǫk (~ 'it divides itself') is intercalated every 200 years.

Dates are written [month] [week]:[day], so Birak 2:4, 100 GW. Dakąrą 1:1, 1 GW was 4 May, 1653 BC. Every Ḅaḅaklǫk is numbered by itself, e.g. 1 Ḅaḅaklǫk 1:1 GW and not Ḅaḅaklǫk 1:1, 200 GW.

There is no year zero; however, there is a 0 Ḅaḅaklǫk—the first day of the first week of 0 Ḅaḅaklǫk was 20 April, 1653 BC. (I didn't pick that date. It was a consequence of selecting 4 May as my year-one start.)

Timekeeping on a smaller scale is accomplished using Sengin reckoning:

1 sogąt = 1/12 solar day = 2.1767 hours
1 koląt = 1/36 sogąt = 3.5 minutes
1 jalǫd = 1/36 koląt = 6 seconds
1 jogǫy = 1/6 jalǫd = 1 second

The Täptäg

The Täptäg have their own methods of counting time. Täptäg Fiscal Years divide the year into 51 five-day weeks; there are ten five-week months plus one week left over at the end of the year. An intercalary month is dumped in every 25 years.
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Hottu
Tinža
Dall
Njäžžech
Urdme
Chjäggik
Hikhna
Mimdut
Sähanne
Gjann
The year-ending week is Kujändanvjän. When present, the intercalary month Pjächluktal precedes Kujändanvjän.

Rendering a date is simple; it's [month/bonus-week] [date], [year]—Gjann 25, 100 TFY or Kujändanvjän 7, 100 TFY. A year zero is included free of charge; Hottu 1, 0 TFY in Julian reckoning was 7 April, 792 AD.

Täptäg consensus time operates as follows:

1 kjävel = 1/12 solar day = 2.1767 hours
1 bhogeoš = 1/8 kjävel = 979.515 seconds
1 mjävku = 1/12 bhogeoš = 81.6 seconds
1 keach = 1/120 mjävku = 0.68 seconds

Western Countries and Followers of the Bỏm Ikkeb

The Year of the Bỏm Ikkeb has its zero date on 8 October, 2266 BC. This is the date of birth of the Bỏm Ikkeb. There are two seasons, Ikeỏ and Muỏn, which each have three 42-day months (Tảlle, Danggan, and Sảngadj). (The last month of the year, the Sảngadj of Muỏn, receives an extra week every 36 years.

You write a date in this system using the scheme [season] [date] [month], so Ikeỏ 1 Tảlle, 0 YBI. Dates prior to year zero are written as positive integers BBI (e.g. Muỏn 40 Danggan, 20 BBI).

Weirdly enough, generally the system of Bor Gyana is used with the Year of the Bỏm Ikkeb, though the time units have different names in different languages.

The Patchwork States and Their Religious Institutions

The Year of St. Vengeance features seven months, each having four weeks, and each of those has nine days.
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Lūquor
Proceo
Nalquis
Ēnnedi
Tseho
Agānni
Dēreo
It's a lunar calendar and it gradually goes out of sync with the rest of time. As if that weren't enough, there's no year zero. I Lūquor, 1 YV was 19 June, 1997 BC Julian. Dates prior to year one are written as positive integers BV ("before Vengeance").

The Year of St. Vengeance uses an archaic Tim Ar timekeeping system—itself inherited from the Classical Kyaha—for smaller units.

1 agār (< CT agêr < CK aġyul) = 1/40 solar day = 0.653 hours
1 murī (< CT musíh < CK musih) = 1/10 agār = 235 seconds
1 cēlcen (< CT kélikan < CK qeylikay) = 1/10 murī = 23.5 seconds
1 haqua (< CT ḫakua < CK qakkua) = 1/10 cēlcen = 2.35 seconds

Southern Countries

Southern countries tend to use Red Death reckoning for the dates. This, of course, gets even worse. In southern countries, there's an alternate system for counting hours, minutes, seconds, &c., the system of Batracchuî. Both the Tim Ar and native names for the time units are given below:

1 léoł (leoche) = 1/24 solar day = 65.3 minutes
1 múin (mûgne) = 1/24 léoł = 2.721 minutes
1 niúor (gnuor) = 1/24 mûgne = 6.802 seconds
1 (îzhe) = 1/6 gnuor = 1.134 seconds
Ares Land
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Ares Land »

I like the idea of the Red Death reckoning! Is there a similar backstory for the St Vengeance one?


The month are very nicely done. (I seem to recall the Miꞌkmaq used 'starving' for late winter too.)
ProfSaber
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by ProfSaber »

I love all the work you've put into timekeeping! I've tried this myself before, but never to this level of detail.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:57 amI like the idea of the Red Death reckoning!
ProfSaber wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:34 pmI love all the work you've put into timekeeping! I've tried this myself before, but never to this level of detail.
Thank you both!
Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:57 amIs there a similar backstory for the St Vengeance one?
Not really. The guy who invented the system just happened to be a devotee of St. Vengeance.
Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:57 amThe month are very nicely done. (I seem to recall the Miꞌkmaq used 'starving' for late winter too.)
Huh, that wasn't intentional on my part.

--------

As any good empire worth its salt, the organization of the Tim Ar Empire is a positively byzantine network of administrative divisions and different, somewhat-overlapping classifications thereof. I've spoken before of how there exist side branches to the normal empire - viceroyalty - namestnichestvo - oblast - raion - selsoviet - city - borough division, namely the free cities and the suzerainties. Well, bring your chainsaws. It gets worse.

In the Empire there are four types of free cities (ákmr ḫér): There are the castellanies, the imperial cities, the marches, and the palatinates. Administratively, they're considered equal in hierarchy to, though smaller than, the oblast.

Imperial cities are the easiest to pin down: They both do the heavy lifting in terms of politics. There are two, namely the capital, Ákmrkámr, and the UN-type-city Ítöðkámr.

A castellany is distinguished from a palatinate in that the former was originally garrisoned or militarily-oriented whereas the latter was generally dependent on its original state for defense—that is to say, castellanies had more autonomy than did palatinates. Cannelon (Kánelon), Dungming (Tuĝmiĝ), Ker Ulu, Leḫéu, Mol Ór, and Nam Náĝ are castellanies; Êhserís, Hütoókhón, Ḫéehalanié, Itseér, Iłnéethéhmia, Kéentak, and Tekhënláan are palatinates.

The march is a third class entirely, which designation being exclusively reserved to city-states of Täptäg origin. There are eight of them; only one of them, Kiáir, has a name as of current.

There are also multiple types of suzerainties: There are three banners, one condominium, one dependency, one duchy, two republics, and four satrapies. Suzerainties are hierarchically on par with the namestnichestvo; they answer to the appropriate viceroy.

The trio of banners (Kal Iháni, Linömaár, and Łolsóĝ) were originally military governments or governorates that were absorbed into the Empire.

The Condominium of the Täptäg Principality is a largely autonomous country. They even handle some of their own foreign affairs, though of course the Tim Ar don't give them too long a leash.

The sole dependency, that of Mitał Kío, is an exclave that wanted into the Empire for reasons of national security. They saw how effectively administration by the Tim Ar went for Lesser Xiaoxiao and figured it would put them on a good footing, though how beneficial the deal that brought them into the Tim Ar fold was is a matter of some debate.

There is also one duchy, Deverris (Teherís). How Deverris, formerly a kingdom about the size of Iraq, got subsumed was kind of a lesser-of-two-evils sort of situation, and unlike the Täptäg, the Deverreans didn't have much to hold in the way of bargaining chips. However, as they surrendered their fully sovereignty of their own accord instead of getting invaded (or feeling such a threat), they enjoy a large deal of autonomy within the Empire (the fact that it's a duchy and not a satrapy is relevant here).

There are two republics, Regon and Tétomoto, distinguished from most of the other entries on the list by dint of not having monarchs and being more purely representational in governance. These two entities are on opposite sides of the supercontinent.

Then we have the satrapiesAtluténðén, Łauëłáu Êhsé, Tesineki, and Rïnmír. These are monarchies with a very short chain—said chain does have elements of legitimacy, however much it can be said that the Empire proper pulls the strings—and they are known for stunning amounts of internal corruption. This same autonomy is the justification by which the Tim Ar leave the satraps in power, considering the corruption to be "matters internal to the satrapy". (Łauëłáu Êhsé actually joined for similar reasons to Mitał Kío, but the power they and the Tim Ar were hoping to keep in check had more import than did the enemies Mitał Kío was worried about, so they got a better deal for integration.)

--------

The Castellany of Dungming is a free city within the Viceroyalty of Greater Kélekeð, specifically in the namestnichestvo of Mehkenihránes (specifically specifically, it's located in the oblast of Éu Te). Dungming is known for its textiles and certain culinary exports—it's an absolute must for gastronomically-inclined tourists.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

"Time is sight, gravity is desire", the Stellaris quote, in CT cuneiform:

Image
keenir
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by keenir »

Man in Space wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:27 pm "Time is sight, gravity is desire", the Stellaris quote, in CT cuneiform:
that is awesome work. is that from the Worm events? (whether it is or not, kudos)

now I'm curious how the scripts differ, with or without that as the example text to compare.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

keenir wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:07 pm
Man in Space wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:27 pm "Time is sight, gravity is desire", the Stellaris quote, in CT cuneiform:
that is awesome work. is that from the Worm events? (whether it is or not, kudos)

now I'm curious how the scripts differ, with or without that as the example text to compare.
Thank you! It might be—I wouldn't know as I've not played the game enough, unfortunately.

----

I have decided to redo, or am considering redoing, some aspects of CT.

- Changing the romanization of /θ/ from ð to z.
- Changing the romanization of /ɬ/ from ł to ś.
- As it stands now, CT has two plosives, /t k/. I'm thinking of making /t/ be more like /t ~ ɹ ~ n/, with [ɹ] being an allophone that shows up in most environments. This contrasts with true initial /ɹ/, so the /t ɹ/ distinction is maintained only in initial position. (You still might get some surface [t] thanks to loanwords or what have you.)
-- /t/ surfaces as [n] before an instance of /ɹ/ or /l/ (phonetically probably [ndɹ ndl]).
-- A corollary of this: Syllables with /ɬ/ are written using the glyphs for /l/ (CT cuneiform was imported from simplified Khaya glyphs). If I go the mostly-collapsing-/t/-and-/ɹ/ route, I might be able to get away with a defective writing system using only the /ɹ/-glyphs. (And maybe, just maybe, I can write /k/ using the glyphs for /ʕ/- or /x/-syllables? Or is that too defective?)
-- I'm thinking of keeping /t/ in sequences where it precedes an alveolar fricative, and possibly after /n/. Though I might make /nt θt st ɬt/ [ndɹ ðdɹ zdɹ ldɹ], just because.
-- /tk/ [tsk]? I think so.
- Thinking about getting rid of the collaborative voice. It's just too clunky.

The above means that Ítöð is now Íröz. And that Tétomoto would become Téromoro, which I could live with.

----

I'm trying to redo the Patchwork States' language…I have a few bits of where I want to go but I am not entirely sure how to get there. What I want phonologically is:

/m n ɲ/ m n gn
/p b t d k~tʃ g~dʒ/ p b t d c g
/f θ s x h/ f z s ch h
/ɹ l w j/ r l u i

/a aː e eː i iː o oː/ a ā e ē i ī o ō
/aɪ aːɪ aʊ aːʊ oɪ oːɪ eʊ eːʊ/ ae āe au āu oe ōe eu ēu
(please pardon the kludged macrons)

With qu /kw/, x /ks/, and /k g/ > [tʃ dʒ] / _{E,j}.

One thing I might do is fortition of continuants in initial position:
f θ s x h ɹ l w j > pf tθ ts kx ʔh dɹ dl gw dʒj / #_
I'm not 100% sold on this. I don't know whether to employ it wholesale, to exclude /w j/ from it, to limit it to fricatives entirely, or to scrap it.

I also want a Latinate case system with four numbers: Singular, dual, paucal, and plural. The paucal typically means "some", but when employed with the definite article it means "many" or "lots of".

Is it a rip-off of Latin (specifically Ecclesiastical Latin)? Yes, with a bit of Tolkien thrown in. Do I care? No, because in-universe it's a liturgical language.
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by bradrn »

Man in Space wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:50 am - As it stands now, CT has two plosives, /t k/. I'm thinking of making /t/ be more like /t ~ ɹ ~ n/, with [ɹ] being an allophone that shows up in most environments. This contrasts with true initial /ɹ/, so the /t ɹ/ distinction is maintained only in initial position. (You still might get some surface [t] thanks to loanwords or what have you.)
You might be interested in the Baining language Mali, which lenites /p t k/ to /β ɹ ɰ/ intervocalically (which domain includes some closely-bound words), but also has underlying /β ɹ ɰ/. My current conlang does the same, but a syncope rule means that some consonants undergo lenition even when not intervocalic.
I'm trying to redo the Patchwork States' language…I have a few bits of where I want to go but I am not entirely sure how to get there. What I want phonologically is:

/m n ɲ/ m n gn
/p b t d k~tʃ g~dʒ/ p b t d c g
/f θ s x h/ f z s ch h
/ɹ l w j/ r l u i

/a aː e eː i iː o oː/ a ā e ē i ī o ō
/aɪ aːɪ aʊ aːʊ oɪ oːɪ eʊ eːʊ/ ae āe au āu oe ōe eu ēu
(please pardon the kludged macrons)

With qu /kw/, x /ks/, and /k g/ > [tʃ dʒ] / _{E,j}.
What phonology are you starting from?

Also, for the macrons, you could use a double macron (U+035E): a͞e a͞u o͞e e͞u. Or use digraphs: ǣ ꜷ̄ œ̄ ᴔ̄.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:42 amYou might be interested in the Baining language Mali, which lenites /p t k/ to /β ɹ ɰ/ intervocalically (which domain includes some closely-bound words), but also has underlying /β ɹ ɰ/. My current conlang does the same, but a syncope rule means that some consonants undergo lenition even when not intervocalic.
bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:42 amWhat phonology are you starting from?
I'm still working on that. In its current form the protolanguage has all open syllables.
bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:42 amAlso, for the macrons, you could use a double macron (U+035E): a͞e a͞u o͞e e͞u. Or use digraphs: ǣ ꜷ̄ œ̄ ᴔ̄.
Cool, thanks!

----------------

So I've been working on the Tim Ar caste system (tël hukú—it's difficult to concisely explain what this means, but roughly 'census-ology'), as you can probably tell by the other thread.

Structure of the Caste System

There are four "levels" of classification. From highest to lowest, they are the méri, the múḫral, the akrár, and the këmêm. That aside, where I've given the different divisions below, I've given them in "prestige" order, most prestigious first. (There is no real difference in prestige among the four levels; everyone has one of each.)

Méri

I translate this as "varna", but it's more racially/ethnically determined than a varna is. There are eight émri:

- Hia: This refers to people descended from the Proto-Tim Ar-O cultural complex. The Tim Ar themselves, of course, are considered primus inter pares, which "equals" include the O, the gPangin, and several other lineages.
- Támrek: If you're Täptäg, you are támrek.
- Kán: Refers to the Caber. There is a long-standing population of Caber in the Tim Ar Empire, descended from refugees, and they're kind of seen as a "younger brother" to the Tim Ar despite being unrelated.
- Konrín: Refers to the people of Gereĝkuólo. Mostly the Irghal, but a few other groups too (such as the Oido).
- Sáĝit: Natives of the Mziddyun and, out of convenience and realpolitik, the Kgáweq'.
- Uiráha: The uiráha people groups are mostly endemic to the Burning Mountains or regions south of them.
- Kia: A wastebasket taxon.
- Uikúa: The primary constituents of the uikúa are peoples who have a bad history with the Tim Ar. This is mainly people who have attempted to or succeeded in conquering the Tim Ar at one point or another.

Four of these terms have their origin in Classical Khaya. Of these, three come from the practice that they liked to classify people according to their numerical bases: Hia are 'people of ten', i.e. the Tim Ar-O cultural complex; kia are 'people of six'; uikúa are 'people of twelve', which include the Khaya. (The modern uses of these words don't imply any particular method of counting.) Uiráha comes from CK wit'a-ha 'mountain people'.

Another three terms are demonyms. Támrek is basically as close as you can get to saying "Täptäg" in CT; kán is a loanword from one of the Mute Caber languages; Sáĝit is borrowed from what the Sengin call themselves, which term itself is an exonym from the Dujajikiswa.

The remaining term, konrín, literally means 'north(ern)', which is where Gereĝkuólo is located.

Múḫral

I translate the term múḫral as 'class'. There are four úmḫral—these are ĝoksík, iĝl, îmrir, and ren. It, however, doesn't make much sense to discuss them without explaining the akrár ar, and this division is probably the most weaksauce/useless of them all. For now, I will list which akrár ar are part of which múḫral:

Ĝôksik – Röz, ïḫ káitén, lerú, ïḫ simní
Iĝl – Sákhazál, oisok, tían, mkói
Îmrir – Halun, śores, kalahíes
Ren – Soś, konér

Akrár

I translate akrár as 'caste'. We aren't quite down to the jati level yet; the akrár ar are sort of supertropes for the jatis. In any case, there are only thirteen akrár ar. I've listed them below with brief (and, in most cases, decidedly not comprehensive) lists of occupations you'll find in them.

Röz (nobility) – Government officials, high-level administrators, military officers, intelligence personnel, a few families from really old and successful businesses
Ïḫ káitén (landed gentry) – Landowners, landlords, property owners, toll collectors, people who administer things like universities and museums
Lerú (aristocracy) – Gigabusiness, old money
Ïḫ simní (hawaladars) – Money transmission, notaries public, bankers, investment advisors, financiers, legal representatives, negotiators, arbitrators, judges
Sákhazál (merchants) – Big business, small business, couriers, logistics, computers, tech support
Oisok (scribes) – Recordkeepers, historians, documentarians, researchers, journalists, archivists, people who preserve information
Tían (academicians) – Scientists, inventors, engineers, architects, urban planners, teachers, &c.
Mkói (caregivers) – Pharmacists, general practitioners (basically, anything medical that doesn't involve blood), food/beverage workers
Halun (mercenaries) – Middle-rank military personnel, security workers, legal professionals, weaponsmiths, weapons dealers, armorers
Śores (commoners) – Tradesmen and skilled workers of various types, farmers or farm administrators, first responders/emergency personnel, some religious occupations
Kalahíes (vulgar commoners) – Musicians, entertainers, professional athletes, artists, casino workers, menial laborers, unskilled workers, some religious occupations
Soś (chattel) – Chattel slaves, serfs, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
Konér (untouchables) – To a first approximation, anything you'd see Mike Rowe doing a segment on. More specifically, if it's an occupation that involves handling of blood, bodily fluids, or remains, or presents significant risk to the worker (e.g. radiation, carcinogens), then it's probably a job for
a konér.

Këmêm

I translate këmêm as 'jati'. There are too many ukemêm to list; one example is that of the boyar (óimi), which falls under the umbrella of the röz.

Membership Restrictions

Strictly speaking, one's status within the caste system is inherited from one's father.

Prohibited Classes and Castes by Varna

- Hia can be of any múḫral except ren.
- Támrek cannot be röz or konér.
- Kán cannot be röz, ïḫ káitén, or of the ren class.
- Konrín cannot be from the ĝoksík or ren class.
- Sáĝit cannot be from the ĝoksík class (one exception: Sáĝit peoples can be ïḫ simní) or the ren class.
- Uiráha cannot be from the röz or ïḫ káitén castes, nor from the ren class.
- Kia can only be îmrir or ren.
- Uikúa can, at best, be kalahíes-caste, but this typically only happens upon manumission; the rest of them are ren.

Moving Up in the System

You don't.

There are a few exceptions to this:
- If you depose the previous dynasty and install yourself as emperor, your family then becomes röz. (The perks of the throne…).
- Infantry—here, I'm using this as a shorthand for "soldiers who are in a role where they may be expected to do combat directly with other people"; this excludes the highest echelons, specialists, pilots, &c.—are considered konér for the duration of their active duty within that role. If they leave the military or are promoted out of combat, they lose this status.
- Meritorious conduct in the military can be a way to move up.
- Prisoners are considered konér. Upon completion of their sentence, they may revert to their original status unless they've been convicted of one of the Six Great Thefts, in which case they remain konér.
- Persons of unknown parentage can receive genetic testing. This is used to classify orphans and children of single mothers, but the exception comes in when someone is thought to be the child of one father but is actually the child of another. In those cases, as they have been alive a while, the person in question gets to choose which class or caste they want to be part of—that of their biological father or the father with whom they were raised.
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Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

The other day I received a copy of Gordon Whittaker’s book on how Nahuatl actually had a logosyllabic writing system, and it made me want to do one for CT. Some preliminary concepts:
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Image
Color is a meaningful distinction in this system; sometimes, changing the color scheme of a glyph will yield a related word, a word for a related concept, or an antonym.
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Re: Twin Aster

Post by Man in Space »

I would like to redo the Tim Ar caste system; the way I had it it seems like it was too bloated. So there will now be sort of three levels: méri 'race/ethnicity/tribe', akrár 'varna/caste', and këmêm 'jati/clan'.

Émri
- Hia – Those of PTO heritage
- Kán – The Caber, especially that contingent of ethnic Caber that has assimilated into the empire
- Konrín – Literally 'northerner', though that's not senso strictu accurate; in practice it's more of an ethnic gerrymander that primarily includes the Täptäg, the Irghal, the cultures of the Mziddyun (who are decidedly not northerners), the Kgáweq' (ditto), and a select few other groups such as the Oido.
- Kia – Wastebasket taxon

Akrár ar
- Oími (aristocracy) – The ruling class, landowners, gigabusiness, old money, hawaladars, high-level military
- Oisok (academics) – Scholars, scribes, bankers, legal professionals, mid-level military, major religious leaders/clergy
- Śores (commoners) – Tradesmen, skilled workers
- Kalahíes (vulgar commoners) – Unskilled workers
- Soś (chattel) – Slaves, serfs, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
- Uikúa (untouchables) – It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it

Ukemêm
There are too many of these to list.

Restrictions on caste
So who can be what?
- Hia can be oími, oisok, śores, or kalahíes.
- Kán can be oisok, śores, or kalahíes.
- Konrín can be śores, kalahíes, or soś.
- Kia can be soś or uikúa.
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