The Allosphere

Conworlds and conlangs
Nortaneous
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

Vague historical outline

The Vtsznxmqp outline as it stands does not make a lot of sense. Presumably there was a lot of exaggeration in the telling - the standard narrative of the American Revolution is not terribly clear about the motives of the sides, and elides some details entirely, such as that we drove the monarchists to Canada at gunpoint. Thankfully, the antebellum situation was such that no detailed account of motives is necessary - grassroots support for a civil war was inevitable and overdetermined, and the only open question is why local elites and the Tsi empire (if the Rau state was a tributary of the Tsi thalassocracy at ~150 years before YP, but it probably was) didn't act decisively to suppress it.

But how visible would all this courtly intrigue have been? One likely contribution to the essentially pro-regime uprising, at least from the modern perspective, is a glut of aspiring lower elites and middlemen, who find in Deutsche Physik and similar ideological constructs a tool to seize resources for themselves; but in OTL even this is a controversial thesis. So the question of cause is best left to foreign historians, and all that needs to be said about the beginning of the war - which, it must be remembered, started as a series of street fights and half-cynical protection rackets, and escalated into an expansionist and eliminationist holy war - is that it was inevitable and overdetermined. Presumably the administrators of Zzxzzyx would have designed their theories of the proper ordering of state and society in part around their interpretations of the causes of the war, but this is a two-way process, and this interpretation need not be accurate or even plausible; in OTL, there's plenty of market share for people like Hofstadter, Peterson, and Levin, not to mention Anglin... a broad liberal mandate is not a likely outcome of the war, and given the etymology of the Zzyxwqnp exonym for the Rau and affiliated tribes - Kztddajjq - it seems logical that the empire would ban the use of plants in religious rituals altogether. Bamboo is probably acceptable, though, since they need to build their temples out of something, and this tendency spreading across the Shit Silk Road would explain a lot about what little is known about the musical traditions of the Enze.

As for how Zzxzzyx managed to expand so far west, it was presumably a young and expanding empire at the time, or even a loose confederation of conquering tribes, although this could be mythologized as Zzxzzyx having been founded in response to the Kztddajjq. The position of the Ziwanic Urheimat would likely need to be adjusted accordingly, but it makes more sense for them to be inland nomadic pastoralists or something anyway. Possibly, even, Tsi recognition of the religious affinity between the sedentary and urbanized Narngic tribes and the eastern barbarians contributed to their support of the Rau uprising. (In the unlikely event that there were remaining Amqolic tribes in the vicinity of Shit New Orleans, it's unclear where they would land, but more likely than not they would've seen by the Tsi as aligned with the Rau due to shared upland Kangshuic cultural influence. Maybe. A lot is unclear about Kangshuic.)

Tone
There is probably a three-way tonal contrast on stressed syllables. It probably doesn't matter that much. Maybe there are more possible tones in verbs.

Allophony

Unstressed vowels are reduced to schwa, except in open syllables where they only undergo height neutralization, to either mid or high depending on position (mid word-finally, high elsewhere). Occasionally the contrast between unstressed /a/ and the other nonfront unrounded vowels is preserved in open syllables; for such speakers, it's realized as [ɐ]. /e i/ and /o u/ may be distinguished from schwa in unstressed closed syllables as [ɪ] and [ʊ] respectively, but may not be. /i/ may exert a palatalizing influence on preceding consonants even before reduction; in certain varieties, this applies before pre-lenis vowel mergers and results in the phonemicization of palatalized consonants, e.g. the near-minimal pair shtíbor /ʃtʲúwəɢ/ "skin" vs. shtoùbor /ʃtùwəɢ/ "yearling (of various domestic animals)".

For the consonants, precise values are less important than the preservation of the systematic contrasts, especially those between the fortis and lenis plosives. These two series have wide ranges of allophones; in certain instances, the fortis and lenis ranges may overlap, but only in mutually exclusive environments.

The fortis series is typically aspirated in group-initial (incl. as C2 in a group-initial cluster) and pre-stress positions. It may also be aspirated in devoiced environments. Aspirates can also vary with affricates, or, in the case of /p/, a fricative, and when an aspirate follows a homorganic fricative, it may be deleted, producing an aspirated fricative.
pànd [pʰæ̃̀ð̞] ~ [pɸæ̀n̪ː] ~ [ɸæ̃̀ɦ] "cat"
beshtád [β.ʃtʰǽð̞] ~ [β.ʃʰǽɦ] "open-air market"
shtíbor [ʃtʲʰúw.ʕ] ~ [ʃʰú.əʕ] "skin"
hqoùb [χqʰʊ̀w] ~ [χʰʊ̀w] "kind of nut"
qutnà [qʰə̥ˀtn̥à] "sacred plant"

The lenis series, on the other hand, is typically realized in pre-stress position with either glottalization (more common group-initially and following a glottalized consonant) or weak voicing (more common group-medially) unless it follows a nasal, in which case it is voiced.
bésel [pˀɛ́stɬ] "tea leaves"
rảba [qˀǎw.ə] ~ [qˀǎːw] "Rau"
hondoù [χən̪.d̪ɯ̀ɣ̞] "grindstone"
irsdả [ʁ.z̪̥d̪̥ǎ] "Zhumna Mountains"

In coda position, things are more complicated. Permissible coda clusters can be up to three consonants, but lenis plosives and nasals can only appear as C1, except for clusters of nasal and homorganic lenis plosive. These "double-lenis" clusters are typically realized with either nasalized vowels or loss of the plosive with compensatory lengthening of the nasal, as in pand above.

etc etc etc more later. tl;dr: fortis glottalized in coda, lenis lenited to approximant, syllabification involves sticking as much as possible on stressed clusters so shtibor is /ʃtib.oɢ/ not /ʃti.boɢ/ (TODO)

Phonotactics

There is a general tendency for prevelars to precede front vowels and postvelars to precede nonfront vowels.

/s/ is generally uncommon, but is absolutely prohibited from preceding a postvelar; in loanwords, such clusters are adapted to /ʃ/.

A velar and a uvular cannot co-occur in a cluster.

When vowel sequences occur, they are resolved with an excrescent semivowel; it is thus possible for [j ɣ̞ w] to appear preceding a stressed vowel, as in -eả [-iˈjâ] "to descend". (If these segments are phonemic, only /a/ may appear in a stressed open syllable; if they aren't, only /ʌ/ may not.)

Syllabification, for now, has a strong preference for stressed vowels, but there is an exception and there will likely be more in the future. The current exception is that a /C᷂.CCV/ sequence may be resyllabified as /#C᷂C.CV/, as in irsdả: /ʁ.sdǎ/ [ʁ̩.z̪d̪ǎ] ~ /ʁs.dǎ/ [ʁəz̪.d̪ǎ] ~ [qˀəz̪.d̪ǎ]. (The phonetic difference necessitates a difference in syllabification - syllabic lenes cannot be realized as plosives.)

An unstressed syllable is maximally CəC and minimally C᷂ (= B N). (Why does Unicode call the Americanist lenis diacritic "combining snake"? Is that even the right character for it?) A stressed syllable must have a vowel (which may or may not have a tone), and can have up to some as yet undecided number of consonants in the onset and coda. There's something of a sonority hierarchy - fricatives and /p/ (which, in a sufficiently unsonorous position, is fricated) < other fortes < lenes and nasals - but /ʃp-/ and /pʃ-/ are both permissible, as are /ʃt-/ and /tʃ-/. However, clusters of fortes other than /pt-/ are rare and mostly limited to recent loanwords; /tp-/ merges into /tm-/ (/m/ is realized as a voiceless fricative after same-syllable fortes), and other fortis clusters, where morphology would generate them, are merged into clicks. (Unlike in the "Khoisan" languages, clicks may be preceded by fricatives.) There are some complications in the phonotactics arising from the fact that /ʃt/ developed in part from *c and still patterns phonotactically as a single segment, although probably it became /tʃ/ or something instead after nasals, more details here

Inflecting verbs typically begin with vowels, to leave a slot for the noun class, and typically do not have initial stress.

More detail goes here later probably, TODO
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Nortaneous
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

Noun classes:

Code: Select all

1)  n-  k-  Humans
2)  d-  g-  Body parts, components, some animates
2b) n-  ng-
3)  r-  s-  Pottery, containers, tools, certain abstracta, most verbal nouns
3b) ng-  ng-
4)  b-  b-  Collectives
4b) m-  m-
5)  n-  n-  Land and sky, geographic features
6)  sh- s-  Abstracta
7)  h-  b-  Vegetables, nuts, some hard objects
7b) h-  m-
8)  s-  g-  Liquids, certain abstracta
8b) ng-  ng-
9) r-  b-  Weapons
9b) ng-  m-
Nouns start with these classes more often than chance, but typically don't. It's occasionally possible for nouns to be derived by the addition of a class prefix - for example, the loanword beshtád "open-air market" was analyzed as a class 4 noun from which was then derived the class 3 noun reshtád "market stall".

Certain verbs select the nasal alternants of the prefixes, with the exception of classes 1 and 6, which are invariant.

In Bakhton, the vowel is removed whenever possible, and neutralized to schwa whenever not; palatalization, however, may be maintained. In practice, the vowels are usually not written or replaced with schwa. Verbs agree with their subjects:
in dag nea [ndǣj nijá] "the man descends"
in pand dea [mpʰæ̃ð ðijá] "the cat descends"
in beshtad bea [mbəʃtǽɦ βijá] "the open-air market descends"
in hondou heaqχəndɯ̀ɣ̞ χijá] "the grindstone descends"
(Here in is a definite nominative marker, which is required to suppress focus. *dag nea is impermissible; the other options are the background construction nea [nijá] alone and the focus construction dag ea [tˀǣj(i)jə] with no person marking and total unstressing of the verb due to S-V new close juncture.)

The prefixes marked with V alternate between uvulars and velars depending on the quality of the following vowel, as in in hondou hea.

Inverse possessive phrasal verbs still exist, and in such cases the verb agrees with the gender of the subject and the noun class of the object, because possessive markers use gender rather than noun class. More later, probably.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Ares Land
Posts: 3019
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:35 pm

Re: The Allosphere

Post by Ares Land »

That looks very interesting, and I'll be glad to see more of this.

Are Vtsznxmqp, Zzxzzyx and Zzyxwqnp endonyms, and if so how are they syllabified?

The conworlding also intrigues me. What is Deutsche Physik?
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by bradrn »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:56 am That looks very interesting, and I'll be glad to see more of this.

Are Vtsznxmqp, Zzxzzyx and Zzyxwqnp endonyms, and if so how are they syllabified?

The conworlding also intrigues me. What is Deutsche Physik?
Well, I happen to know that ⟨Zzyxwqnp⟩ is [ⁿdzɿ˧˩wɒ̃˩], because I asked a while ago. The other names are presumably much the same (I guess [v̩t͡sə̃˧˩mɒ˩] and [d͡zə˧˩ⁿd͡zɿ˧˩] for ⟨Vtsznxmqp⟩ and ⟨Zzxzzyx⟩ respectively). But you’re not the only one who’d appreciate more details — the conlangs here are consistently fascinating, but I can’t find much information about them.
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Travis B.
Posts: 6850
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: The Allosphere

Post by Travis B. »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:56 am The conworlding also intrigues me. What is Deutsche Physik?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Nortaneous
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:56 am That looks very interesting, and I'll be glad to see more of this.

Are Vtsznxmqp, Zzxzzyx and Zzyxwqnp endonyms, and if so how are they syllabified?
/v̩˥.sə̃˧˩.ⁿbɒ̃˩/, /zə˧˩.ⁿdzɿ˧˩/, /ⁿdzɿ˧˩.wɒ̃˩/. bradrn is correct that Zzyxwqnp has /ts/, but it's written <c>.

The romanization uses the maximalist analysis, basically because it's easier. There are a few distributional restrictions that suggest only four vowels:
- /ə a/ can't appear after labials
- /ə ɿ/ can't appear after palatals
- /i/ can't appear after alveolar affricates
- /j w/ can't appear before /ɿ v̩/
So it's possible to analyze the vowels <a q e z o i u y v> /a ɒ e ə o i u ɿ v̩/ as actually /a wa jə ə wə ji wu i u/.

However, the reason there isn't much information on Zzyxwqnp ( = Ziwan) is that it isn't very well-developed, because its known ancestor isn't, and its sound changes need work. The amount of extant documentation on the Vengic languages correlates with the amount of substrate influence - the most developed one is Hlu, which at this point is practically Hathic, but the "purer" languages like Zzyxwqnp and Zot are much more difficult. (For Zot, the problem is that person-marking is irregular and frequently synchronically suppletive, and I've completely forgotten its derivation.)
The conworlding also intrigues me. What is Deutsche Physik?
Deutsche Physik is not a conworld thing at all.

Basically, the problem I'm trying to work out is that what's known about the mythical founding of Zzxzzyx ( = Zenzi) doesn't make any sense. The central antagonist of the Vtsznxmqp Pvpchqpye Zzxzzyx (/v̩˥sə̃˧˩ⁿbɒ̃˧˩ pv̩˩tɕɒ˩je˧ zə˧˩ⁿdzɿ˧˩/) - which is sort of their Aeneid - is a Kztddajjq (Rau) religio-military leader named Shquqou /ʃqʌ̀qɯ/, who...

OK, some background. I've been talking about the distinction between "Rau" and "Veng" peoples, but this isn't how anyone at the time would've understood it - there were "Rau" who spoke Vengic languages (e.g. the Koxwq /ko˧˩wɒ˧/), and "Veng" who spoke Hathic languages (mostly on the eastern coasts, e.g. off the coast of Bor, which is why Hlu is like that). Unfortunately, I don't know what the accurate terms would be in Rau or Zzyxwqnp (or Narng, etc.), so we'll call them Katnahl /katnaɬ/ and Cihlae /ȶiɬæ/, which are their names in Hlu. (Cihlae is probably a loan, probably from something like *tisai, which looks Eastern Hathic.)

From the perspective of both groups, the actual difference is a religious one. In general, the religious concepts and narratives of any Cihlae group can be translated into those of any other Cihlae group - even if it's a huge stretch, like the Roman identification of Odin with Mercury, there's at least some concept that they're doing a similar sort of thing, and some framework for mutual recognition. And the religious concepts and narratives of any Katnahl group can be translated into those of any other Katnahl group, because "Katnahl" is defined by its cultural influence from the Kangshi (and probably also Tsi) civilization - the Koxwq might be wrong, but it's possible to explain to them in their own terms that they're wrong, whereas there's no common ground with the Cihlae.

Since there's no common ground with the Cihlae, obviously the thing to do, Shquqou thought, is to kill most of them and forcibly convert the rest, and explain to the Katnahl who didn't follow him that they were wrong (by killing most of them and forcibly converting the rest), in order to bring about a new golden age. Why would he do that? And what might create the conditions for him to do that and gain followers? His territory, the city-state of Shit New Orleans, was already ruled by an officially Katnahl state, albeit one that tolerated the Veng - until it didn't.

This sort of thing happens sometimes - in the real world, we have Hong Xiuquan, Pol Pot, Abu Tahir al-Jannabi, and so on.

Anyway. Shquqou's horde (actually a pre-existing horde that Shquqou took over after killing its general, whose name I forget) expanded outside the boundaries of Shit New Orleans, eastward, into Cihlae territory, killing and sermonizing until... in the Vtsznxmqp's telling, the Zzxzzyx Confederation is created to repel him, but this obviously makes no sense. The Vtsznxmqp also doesn't go into any detail about his motivations or those of his followers, because why would it? That's just How Things Were before Zzxzzyx. (If we hadn't kicked the British out, we'd have a queen, and she'd tax our tea!)
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by bradrn »

Nortaneous wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:07 pm However, the reason there isn't much information on Zzyxwqnp ( = Ziwan) is that it isn't very well-developed, because its known ancestor isn't, and its sound changes need work. The amount of extant documentation on the Vengic languages correlates with the amount of substrate influence - the most developed one is Hlu, which at this point is practically Hathic, but the "purer" languages like Zzyxwqnp and Zot are much more difficult. (For Zot, the problem is that person-marking is irregular and frequently synchronically suppletive, and I've completely forgotten its derivation.)
Well, if there isn’t much available on Zzyxwqnp, is there at least anything I can read about Hlu?
… "Katnahl" is defined by its cultural influence from the Kangshi (and probably also Tsi) civilization …
Hmm, a tangential question on this… would this ‘Tsi’ be the same one referenced in Yng’s stories in Cuhbi, or are they two completely unrelated cultures which just happen to have a name in common?
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Nortaneous
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

bradrn wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:25 am Well, if there isn’t much available on Zzyxwqnp, is there at least anything I can read about Hlu?
kinda
Hmm, a tangential question on this… would this ‘Tsi’ be the same one referenced in Yng’s stories in Cuhbi, or are they two completely unrelated cultures which just happen to have a name in common?
Yes, also H13's Kangshi. The major language families of the eastern regions of the Allosphere (at YP nothing further away is relevant to it yet) are:
- Kangshuic (H13), spoken in and near the Zhjumna Mountains (which really should have a Kangshuic name; Amqoli is not a major language)
- Kaam-Yerte (H13), spoken in... Tsalaysia? but originating around the coast of the Swamp Continent, where it was mostly replaced by Vengic
- Oʔon (yng), spoken in Tsalaysia, which is northish of the Swamp Continent
- Kllkic (yng), spoken in the Dog Continent, which is some sort of desert far to the north (the Swamp Continent is south of the equator)
- Hathic (me), spoken around the coast of the Swamp Continent, in relict areas of Tsalaysia, and on some other far-flung islands
- Vengic (me), which originated in the eastern reaches of the Swamp Continent, spread rapidly up the coasts, and then disintegrated due to stress shifts; typologically, it shows no clear tendencies, presumably due to absorption of substrate influence from everything it steamrolled.
- Amqolic (me), spoken in the Zhjumna Mountains

The other languages of the Allosphere (Kannow, etc.) are mostly on the other side of the Swamp Continent, which hasn't been updated in years because I lost all the files.

The major Vengic languages are Zzyxwqnp and Narng, neither of which exist in any reasonable form yet. I think there might be sound changes for Narng? And the major Amqolic language is probably Deghuri or something.

There are also some vaguely-defined sprachbunds, most of which haven't been described yet. The Western Eastern sprachbund, which includes some Kangshuic and Amqolic language in addition to Rau, has shared traits including uvulars, large initial clusters, generally prefixing morphology including noun class agreement (except in Amqolic), moderate case systems, tonal contrasts but maybe only on stressed syllables, etc. (Narng, a Vengic language, probably follows this pattern to some extent, or should - except for noun classes, which it probably doesn't have. Grammatically, it's probably a lot like Rau, just like how Hlu is a lot like whichever Hathic languages are spoken around there.)

Here are some Narng - Hlu cognates:

Code: Select all

žɔŋ     ʔwɤɲ  
meka    mɯ    
šutəŋ   ndɯɲ  
nava    ŋgɒɬ  
šuke    hu    
či      se    
čoːč    ʔæ    
mnuri   ywɤy  
maža    mæ    
teŋə    ɗɯɲ   
perə    ɓi     
ža      yɒ     
kosa    ɠɤɬ    
mahər   ŋgɤ    
piːr    cwɤ    
lɔr     yɯ     
čurəh   tɒ     
topə    ɗɤp    
ženəp   ynɒ    
žuːr    ywɤ    
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by bradrn »

Nortaneous wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:49 am
bradrn wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:25 am Well, if there isn’t much available on Zzyxwqnp, is there at least anything I can read about Hlu?
kinda
Hmm, a tangential question on this… would this ‘Tsi’ be the same one referenced in Yng’s stories in Cuhbi, or are they two completely unrelated cultures which just happen to have a name in common?
Yes, also H13's Kangshi. The major language families of the eastern regions of the Allosphere (at YP nothing further away is relevant to it yet) are:
- Kangshuic (H13), spoken in and near the Zhjumna Mountains (which really should have a Kangshuic name; Amqoli is not a major language)
- Kaam-Yerte (H13), spoken in... Tsalaysia? but originating around the coast of the Swamp Continent, where it was mostly replaced by Vengic
- Oʔon (yng), spoken in Tsalaysia, which is northish of the Swamp Continent
- Kllkic (yng), spoken in the Dog Continent, which is some sort of desert far to the north (the Swamp Continent is south of the equator)
- Hathic (me), spoken around the coast of the Swamp Continent, in relict areas of Tsalaysia, and on some other far-flung islands
- Vengic (me), which originated in the eastern reaches of the Swamp Continent, spread rapidly up the coasts, and then disintegrated due to stress shifts; typologically, it shows no clear tendencies, presumably due to absorption of substrate influence from everything it steamrolled.
- Amqolic (me), spoken in the Zhjumna Mountains
Thank you! I do hope you get around to properly documenting these at some point… they all look amazing, and it would be a shame to let them disappear (I’ve always admired Cuhbi, for instance, but almost all of its documentation has since disappeared into the æther.)
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Nortaneous
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

bradrn wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:14 pm Thank you! I do hope you get around to properly documenting these at some point… they all look amazing, and it would be a shame to let them disappear (I’ve always admired Cuhbi, for instance, but almost all of its documentation has since disappeared into the æther.)
iirc yng was at one point working on a grammar of it. (does yng still post here? does h13?) there's some information on anthologica

if I ever get around to documenting any of my conlangs, Rau is probably the highest priority unless I scrap everything and revise it again, but I think "what if Burmeso was also Coptic" fits reasonably well with what's known about the area and the family - realistically for YP the two important ones are Rau and Zzyxwqnp
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
bradrn
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:25 am

Re: The Allosphere

Post by bradrn »

Nortaneous wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:50 pm
bradrn wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:14 pm Thank you! I do hope you get around to properly documenting these at some point… they all look amazing, and it would be a shame to let them disappear (I’ve always admired Cuhbi, for instance, but almost all of its documentation has since disappeared into the æther.)
iirc yng was at one point working on a grammar of it. (does yng still post here? does h13?) there's some information on anthologica
Thank you! Also, I discovered yesterday that the grammar seems to still be floating around, at https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zem7ojuq3722 ... i.pdf?dl=0.

Sadly, Yng seems to have not made it onto the new board; Hallow XIII is still here, but seems to be focused on the Reconstruction Relay.
if I ever get around to documenting any of my conlangs, Rau is probably the highest priority unless I scrap everything and revise it again, but I think "what if Burmeso was also Coptic" fits reasonably well with what's known about the area and the family - realistically for YP the two important ones are Rau and Zzyxwqnp
What do you mean by ‘YP’? (And ‘Coptic Burmeso’ sounds like Komnzo with its crazy distributed marking.)
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Ares Land
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Ares Land »

Nortaneous wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:07 pm
Deutsche Physik is not a conworld thing at all.
Ah, gotcha! Sorry for the confusion.
(...)
Since there's no common ground with the Cihlae, obviously the thing to do, Shquqou thought, is to kill most of them and forcibly convert the rest, and explain to the Katnahl who didn't follow him that they were wrong (by killing most of them and forcibly converting the rest), in order to bring about a new golden age. Why would he do that? And what might create the conditions for him to do that and gain followers? His territory, the city-state of Shit New Orleans, was already ruled by an officially Katnahl state, albeit one that tolerated the Veng - until it didn't.

This sort of thing happens sometimes - in the real world, we have Hong Xiuquan, Pol Pot, Abu Tahir al-Jannabi, and so on.
(...)
Well, in any case, that scenario makes a lot of sense. Honestly, it's very similar to the attitude towards Muslim in parts of the Western world.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

Nortaneous wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:49 amspoken in and near the Zhjumna Mountains (which really should have a Kangshuic name; Amqoli is not a major language)
For what it's worth, Kangshi's macrofamily (which probably doesn't exist) was supposed to be named Qoic, after the Old Kangshi ñzw.qxox [ŋzɯ55ˈqʰχɔ52] for the mountain range it is spoken in. Which would be the Zhjumna.

That name probably simplifies somehow in modern Kangshi... sqox [sqˤo52] is likely to be the reflex, with class III merging with class I. (This makes sense for semantic as well as phonological reasons: in Old Kangshi, class I is (male) humans, while class III is spirits and everything connected with the spirit world).
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

Some excerpts from a text on Kangshi I'm composing. The boring stuff, really, but the meat is on the way.

Introduction

The Kangshi language, named after its usual autonym (Kangshi: qcñxswx), which literally means just what is spoken, is one of the more important languages spoken in the eastern reaches of the continent of Enzia around the year 1500 BE. It is notable as the relative of the Old Kangshi language, which achieved historical importance as the text of some of the most important religious texts on the continent, including the Mqczixtih Ihdzodj, or The Words of Creation, that would later become the foundational scripture of Khaism, eventually being translated into virtually all local literary languages of note.

Linguistically, Kangshi belongs to the northern branch of the Kangshuic family, frequently also called Kangshuic A by specialists in the internal comparison of this family. Kangshuic A is distinguished from other branches of Kangshuic by its significant phonological and grammatical conservatism in terms of broad structure, compensated by significant innovation in the details. The phonological system of modern Kangshi, for example, is not far away from that reconstructible for Proto-Kangshuic. However, the distribution of segments is very distinct, as is the allophony exhibited.

Similarly, modern Kangshi does not distinguish a lot of different categories from its ancestor, but it has abandoned entire types of ancestral morphology, innovating new morphology from previously syntactic constructions.

Kangshi Phonology

Kangshi is a very internally diverse languge, with several dozen mutually intelligible, and yet distinct, varieties being spoken all over the Kangshi language area. This document concerns the variety commonly known as Trade Kangshi (Kangshi: qÑxswx n ñpruj [qʰʌ̃ˤ55sˤɯ52 ŋ̩11ŋpʂu12]), specifically the merchant dialect of Lwurlaw (Kangshi: dBvgdauf [lβɤˤ2235]), one of the largest urban settlements in Kangshi-speaking territories.

Consonants

Lwurlaw Trade Kangshi, like most varieties of Kangshi, has a fairly small number of phonemically distinct consonants. They are tabulated below in the customary orthography:
LabialAlveolarRetroflexVelarUvular
Tenuis Stopptkq
Voiced Stopbd
Fricativesχ
Voiced Fric.zʐʁ
Nasalmnŋ

Allophony

The realization of these phonemes is deeply dependent on context. There are a few general rules:

The tenuis stops are generally realized as tenuis stops. When they occur in a cluster before another consonant, they are usually aspirated.

The voiced stops /b d/ are realized as voiced stops following nasals, implosives [ɓ ɗ] following voiceless consonants and resonants [β l] in most other contexts.

The fricative /ʐ/ devoices to [ʂ] adjacent to a voiceless consonant.

The uvular fricatives /χ ʁ/ often back to pharyngeals [ħ ʕ]. In clusters, this often results in elision, leaving only pharyngealization of the surrounding consonants and vowels.

The velar nasal undergoes place assimilation to uvular consonants, becoming [ɴ]. In syllabic position, but especially before /χ/, it then frequently debuccalizes entirely, leaving behind a nasalized vowel [ʌ̃].



Vowels

Unlike the consonants, the vowels of Lwurlaw Trade Kangshi correspond less well to the customary orthography. The vowel phonemes are as follows:
FrontBack UnroundedBack Rounded
Highiɯu
Mideɤo
Near-Lowæɔ
Lowɑ

Additionally, the falling diphthongs /iə uə ɯə ɤi ɤu/ are distinguished. The schwa element in the high-mid falling diphthongs is significantly affected by the preceding vowel, and thus written with a distinct symbol; the beginning vowel of the mid-high diphthongs is phonetically almost identical to the standalone vowel /ɤ/ and is thus transcribed with the same symbol.

These vowels correspond to the customary orthography as follows:
IPAOrthography
ii
ɯw
uu
ee
ɤv
oo
æc
ɔau
ɑa
ic, ie
uo
ɯəwa
ɤici, ei
ɤuou

Tones

Lwurlaw Kangshi, like most other Kangshi varieties, has four lexical tones. Every word has at most one tone-bearing syllable; toneless syllables receive their tones based on the tones of the next relevant tone-bearing syllable.

The tones are written with letters following the tone-bearing syllable. They are tabulated below:
ToneContourOrthography
High55n/a
Low12-j
Falling52-x
Rising35-f

Historically, Kangshi words were strictly prefixing with obligatory final stress, so the tone letter is written following the last syllable of the word. Lwurlaw Trade Kangshi makes heavy use of a set of toneless suffixes for verbal inflection; customarily, these suffixes are written as separate syllables:

Ndej zmgcij dau au skuox?
[nde11 zmˤʕɤi1222ʔɔ22 skuə52]

Code: Select all

ndej s-  m-    gcij  -dau =au s-  kuox
2s   cI- REAL- clean -PFV =Q  cI- incense_burner
Did you clean the incense burner?
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

Chat notes on the verbal system:
the realis marks what u would expect: Kangshi zmgcij "somebody is cleaning a class I object", Pirka səməhar/smihar id.
the irrealis probably has uses in some complement constructions but it has the most classic function of being an imperative: Kangshi zgcij skuox! "clean the incense burner!"
the contingent is ur main device for stitching together clauses
its basic function is different-subject chaining
grax se zmdcgf dau kpvbux dau se gw nax [1s cI-that cI-REAL-hit=PFV CONT-jump=PFV cI-that go_toward 1s.OBL] "I hit him, then he jumped at me..."
while the t- chainer does same-subject chains with the realis mood and... egophoric irrealis complements? idk some jargon of the sort
i.e.
zmdcgf dau grax tmpvbux dau gw nze [cI-REAL-hit=PFV 1s SS-REAL-jump=PFV go_toward OBL-cI-that] "I hit him, then jumped at him"
and
mrxwb grax tgw n dBvgdauf [REAL-want 1s SS-go OBL cVI-Lwurlaw] "I want to go to Lwurlaw"
usually in this kind of complement construction the t- prefix alternates with the nominalizer for different-subject constructions
mmrxwb grax ñgw sPvgbcx n dBvgdauf [cIX-REAL-want 1s NMLZ-go cI-Purwah OBL cVI-Lwurlaw]
"I want Purwah to go to Lwurlaw"

pirka also has this, but it has full person marking:
tmlɔɣt təlʔo, tətkup, tətirŋam kta pruʔɔ ʔtitəŋkarpə lnikɔ ləRtu
t-m-lɔɣ-t t-lʔo, t-t-kup, t-t-rŋam kta pr-uʔɔ ʔ=t-t-ŋkar-pə l-nikɔ l-Rtu
cII-REAL-hit-1s cII-tree, cII-SS-cut_up, cII-SS-stack put cV-boat, finally=cII-SS-send-APPL cVI-town cVI-Rtu
"I chopped the trees, cut them up, stacked the logs on the boat and sent them to Rtu"
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
Nortaneous
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

Two common Zhjumna Coast sprachbund processes that are also attested in Rau are liquid fortition and harmonic cluster metathesis.

Liquid fortition is simple. Pre-Rau allowed the plosive + liquid clusters /pl bl ml pr br mr nr kr gr ŋr/ in onset position. /pl bl ml/ became /pχ bɢ mɢ/; all other C2 liquids became /dz/. Outside clusters, the liquids /l r j/ became /ɢ z g/.

(Note that lateral obstruents generally became velars, while the lateral liquid became a uvular. These are unrelated sound changes that happened at different times. Loss of lateral obstruents and θ (< *s) > ɬ are both recent and limited to the Bakhton area, as is ʁ (< *l) > ɢ.)

Harmonic cluster metathesis is more complicated. The languages of the Zhjumna Coast sprachbund (i.e. western Continental Hathic, most of Amqolic, and Narng, but generally not Kangshuic) all heavily restrict initial consonant clusters in ways unrelated to the sonority hierarchy. (In Amqoli, for example, onset stop + stop clusters must proceed from front to back, so /pt pk/ are allowed but */tp kp/ aren't.)

In Rau, cluster harmony applies to all clusters of two occlusives, and has the following rules:
1) A harmonic cluster may not contain two occlusives with the same articulator class. (i.e. labial, coronal, or dorsal)
2) A harmonic cluster may not contain a C1 labial.
3) A harmonic cluster may not contain a C2 velar.
4) The whole cluster takes on the MOA of C2.

In other words, the permissible cluster types are:
- TP TB TM
- KP KB KM
- KT KD KN
- the exceptional non-harmonic clusters /bɢ mɢ ndz Pdz Kdz/ (i.e. |bʁ mʁ nr Pr Kr|)

If a non-harmonic cluster would be created, it's resolved either by loss of the first consonant (if the two occlusives have the same articulator class), frication of the first consonant (if the two occlusives are both dorsal, in new close juncture), or metathesis.

When C2 is a labial, it's realized as [f]~[v]~[w]. The other class, dorsal + coronal, produces the clicks, which are dental, lateral, and palatal, and are uvularized if C1 is uvular. (Note that, because lateral obstruents have merged with velars and resolution rules of C1C1 clusters depend on juncture class, the sequence /k-k/ can give either [k], [kǂ], or [xk]. Neither laterals nor palatals are realized as such anymore - |ƛ λ c ɟ| are /k g s dz/.)

Other onset clusters are fricative + occlusive (+ liquid) and plosive + non-homorganic fricative.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

An introduction to Katnahl religion

The Swamp continent around YP contains a multitude of ethnic groups, engaging in a multitude of different economic activities and speaking another multitude of languages. What all these groups have in common, however, is their self-identification as being part of one of two loose religious groups: the Cihlae and the Katnahl.

Both of these groups have shared religious and cultural traditions traceable to older tribal beliefs and practices. Of the two, the Katnahl are perhaps the more cohesive, since they consist of the peoples who converted to the Kangshi religion after it was written down and exported alongside the Kangshi institutions of writing and metallurgy.

This religion, which we will call Khaism after its principal deity (Old Kangshi: qv-xah; the sky, heaven, the realm of the spirits, the supreme God), is largely a codification of ancient Kangshuic shamanic practices and oral history, much like Hinduism; also like Hinduism, there exist multiple heresies of it that have established themselves as independent religions; and in the same vein, the original theology and practice have been almost completely supplanted by what started out as radical sects.

All varieties of Khaism share a set of cosmological assumptions. In the Khaist myth, the world is suspended like a pearl in an all-encompassing spirit world. The world had always existed, but was barren until the gods descended upon it from the spirit world and made it lush and verdant. The first humans were descended from those of the spirits who decided to stay and inhabit the world they had made, with the blessing of Heaven, to whom they made obeisance as the power who had granted them the world as their fief.

In traditional Khaism, as recorded in the oldest scriptures, and still practiced in part of the backwaters of the Zhjumna foothills, the theology largely ends there. Religious practice in these communities largely consists of shamanic rituals to commune with and appease the spirits. Chief concern in this variety is with the familial and clan ancestors, who are considered to be the entities with the most power over the immediate life and afterlife of humans. The greater spirits and gods, even Kha itself, are more distant and invoked only rarely.

The mainstream lowland varieties of Khaism largely descend from a philosophical shift that spread around the time of the first Kangshi empire. This held that Kha is the ancestor to all spirits and thus of all life, and deserved special worship ahead of all other spirits, as the greatest and ultimate progenitor. In these “properly” Khaist beliefs, worship is confined almost exclusively to Kha itself and the immediate familial ancestors, although their influence is considered much reduced compared to the traditionalist practice. Lesser gods are marginalized, and in later exegesis often considered emanations or aspects of Kha itself, rather than fully independent entities.

A further development on this line of thought led to the variety of beliefs known as Metkorism, and practiced most widely among the Rau. This tradition claims that emanations of Kha occasionally “descend” from the spirit world to inhabit humans, who then become prophets of the cosmic law and right human affairs when they have forsaken the way of Kha. Such a person is appropriately known as a “descent”, or Metkor (Old Kangshi: sv-gmvtkog). Founded by Qila Metkor (OK: svQwadaz svGmvtkog), a charismatic leader who claimed to be such an emanation, Metkorism has spread widely among Katnahl peoples. Usually, only one Metkor is accepted to have existed in recent times, although at least one other individual claimed to be one with widespread acceptance during his life: Shquqou the Destroyer (however, after his defeat, claiming divine status for him was outlawed in many Katnahl jurisdictions and generally faded quickly).
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

One detail that this leaves out is that, from the Cihlae perspective, the distinguishing trait of the Katnahl is their ritual use of qutna (Rau; the Kangshi call it dKmzcbh, a repurposed name for a plant native to the Zhjumna), a large shrub in the mint family. The leaves of this plant contain several compounds that have medicinal uses; as a component of tisanes, it is traditionally used to treat all manner of illnesses.

More interestingly, the leaves contain a terpenoid chemical that has a powerful hallucinogenic and dissociative effect on the user when consumed in sufficiently high doses. Traditionally the leaves are infused in alcohol together with certain other ingredients to create a powerfully intoxicating and entheogenic liquor, which has made it a mainstay of traditional shamanic practice in the areas in which it grows. The qutna is appropriately considered a sacred plant of Kha for both its reputed healthful properties and its ability to bring one closer to the spirit world. In the annual Rau festival of ǂámkhob, for example, it is usual to decorate the door of the house with qutna branches, and for the young men of noble and priestly families to perform public dances in costumes made from it, after imbibing the hallucinogenic draught.

Recreational use of the qutna as a drug is rare among most Katnahl communities, although the Qoa are known to indulge in this practice.

Only one Metkor claimant is generally accepted, but there are other Metkor claimants with some followings, such as Kemerten (Qoa: kimməṭäṇ səmeqqɔɔ).

Kemerten was a member of the kṣättəpaɔk clan of traveling Metkorist metalworkers, which was caught up in an anti-nomadism initiative of the Big Yeet provincial government - the whole clan was forcibly settled, and Kemerten was indentured to the shipbuilder Psegit. He responded (so the story goes) by proclaiming himself Metkor, leading a revolt of indentured servants, and stealing both Psegit's ship and his daughter, who became his most influential convert.

Kemerten taught that, because the gods had made the world verdant, civilization and agriculture were affronts to Kha, and because humans were themselves descended from gods, indenture, taxation, and arranged marriage were illegitimate. Civilization produces moral, physical, and spiritual degradation, and is contrary to the way of Kha, which was represented by the primordial, anarchic state of the first spirit-men - hunting, gathering, communal anarchy, and sexual libertinism. By the same logic, he repudiated the distinction between the shamans (Qoa: səpṣəkät) and the common people, and communalized the performance of rituals.

Such habits and patterns of social organization have not made the teachings of Kemerten popular with the surrounding agricultural states, and the concentration of bands of his followers in coastal areas originates in the Decree of Expulsion of Kangshi Emperor Marzo Zdafsey (Old Kangshi: Magdzoz Svdcbtsedx), who saw the social order in his realm so threatened by the growing influence of this subversive movement that he acted with the utmost brutality to suppress it, ultimately resulting in the death or flight of near a tenth of the population.
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Hallow XIII »

bradrn wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:14 am
Nortaneous wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:50 pm if I ever get around to documenting any of my conlangs, Rau is probably the highest priority unless I scrap everything and revise it again, but I think "what if Burmeso was also Coptic" fits reasonably well with what's known about the area and the family - realistically for YP the two important ones are Rau and Zzyxwqnp
What do you mean by ‘YP’? (And ‘Coptic Burmeso’ sounds like Komnzo with its crazy distributed marking.)
Turns out I failed to notice this question for a quarter. "YP" is the somewhat-arbitrarily defined "present year" of the Allosphere; essentially the point in history at which the Cuhbi grammar's present tense holds. This was a convenient schelling point because most of my Conlangs were set in a period of history that about fits the civilization and technology of Yng's documents, and ditto for Nort, whose conlangs and conworlding on the ZBB have so far largely focused on events between the grey prehistory and early historical period of his conworld.

At YP, there is basically only one place on the planet that has appreciable civilization, which is the Swamp Continent. The Swamp Continent is in many ways like the Ancient Near East, including the fact that it eventually becomes irrelevant, but puts a great deal of cultural knowledge into the water supply.

The *entire* imagined history of the Allosphere covers a period of ten to twenty thousand years, of which maybe the last quarter are in any way relevant rather than just background. Unfortunately, this still leaves a lot of details to be specified.
Mbtrtcgf qxah bdej bkska kidabh n ñstbwdj spa.
Ogñwdf n spa bdej bruoh kiñabh ñbtzmieb n qxah.
Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf. Qiegf.
Nortaneous
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Re: The Allosphere

Post by Nortaneous »

Hallow XIII wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:58 pm At YP, there is basically only one place on the planet that has appreciable civilization, which is the Swamp Continent. The Swamp Continent is in many ways like the Ancient Near East, including the fact that it eventually becomes irrelevant, but puts a great deal of cultural knowledge into the water supply.
I've been imagining at least two - the other side of the continent probably has agricultural states and (proto-?)writing - but I'm not sure how the chronology works out. There's plenty of wiggle room before the Kett, but the Kannow invasion of Harue probably precedes the onset of technological modernity by only 1000-1500 years.

(I have been meaning to at some point detail the later present year I've been keeping in my head, relating to Enze reunification, the rise of Renxau the Astrologue, and the Manhattan Project of Hathic philology, but this requires working with Kannow, which is in a very poor state because I knew even less grammar ten years ago than I do now. This would additionally require detailing the third present year, i.e. the peak of the civilization of the Kett, so as to provide context for the Kannow expansion; I've been imagining that YP = YP3, with the remnants of the Hathic presence in the Swamp Continent playing the role of the Ancient Near East, but this probably does not make any sense. It's additionally unclear what's even in Harue; Sestmag in particular is phonologically, and IIRC grammatically, very close to Kangshuic despite being spoken on the entire other side of Shit Eurasia, and should perhaps be relocated entirely.)

The entire imagined history of the Allosphere covers a period of at least 10k-20k years - the Hathe have been like that for a while. They've lost a lot of territory, though. Renxau was very interested in the problem of nautical longitude.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
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