Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[xxx]

It's like using T9, ten signs for a whole alphabet (very useful for one-hand typing)... but so poor...
A new proof of the impact of machine on human activity...
where handmade calligraphy will be replaced by electronic fonts...

I use a logographic writing, and I'd need a huge keyboard for digital use... IME with pinyin-like, is the more efficient... except handmade writing on paper (more durable, anyhow..)

[Linguoboy]

I just thought to check my phone (sometimes I'm slow), and maybe it's worth mentioning that there are also a few methods based on the composition of the character (the strokes that make it up), including Cangjie, which maybe can still give me nightmares.

IME Cangjie is most popular among "digital immigrants", i.e. those who mastered handwriting characters or typing them on a manual typewriter before learning to type on computers and handheld devices. I don't get the feeling that many people are actively acquiring it anymore, but I could be wrong.

[akam chinjir]

Yeah, could be. I've only encountered it in Hong Kong, as far as I can remember, where it also has the benefit that plenty of people actually won't know pinyin especially well. (And I only ever used it at a time when, at least on the computers I had access to, you couldn't use pinyin input for traditional characters, or maybe even at all, on the Chinese-language versions of Windows.)

[Vijay]

Does anyone happen to know what the Carthaginians called Spain? I'm familiar with the putative Punic etymology of Hispania, but I personally find it unconvincing. The Punic would be something like ʾī saponīm, which looks considerably less like Hispania than Hebrew ʾī šᵉfanīm. Jews took to calling it Sᵉfarad in the Roman period, which might have a Punic cognate of something like Sapard, but Sᵉfarad is derived from an unknown location in Obadiah--not promising for a Punic name. Google, Wikipedia, and Krahmer have all let me down on this front.

So it couldn't be Ispania?

[mèþru]

there are several others suggested, like i-spy or i-spny

[Zaarin]

Does anyone happen to know what the Carthaginians called Spain? I'm familiar with the putative Punic etymology of Hispania, but I personally find it unconvincing. The Punic would be something like ʾī saponīm, which looks considerably less like Hispania than Hebrew ʾī šᵉfanīm. Jews took to calling it Sᵉfarad in the Roman period, which might have a Punic cognate of something like Sapard, but Sᵉfarad is derived from an unknown location in Obadiah--not promising for a Punic name. Google, Wikipedia, and Krahmer have all let me down on this front.

So it couldn't be Ispania?

It could be something like ʾispaniya, I suppose, though that doesn't look like a native Punic term.

there are several others suggested, like i-spy or i-spny

Hmm, I might be able to work with that...

EDIT: I think I'm going to go with Ṭarṭessiya. Tartessos was right next door and a major trading partner for Carthage's Iberian colonies, so I don't have a problem with stealing its name when Carthage assimilates it.

[Salmoneus]

All this makes me start worrying a bit about the future of our language.

I wouldn't despair just yet - your language has forty million speakers and an extensive contemporary literature. I think several other languages are more at risk of extinction then yours.

[Vijay]

Yes, of course there are plenty of endangered languages in the world today, and Malayalam is not one of them! But I still have certain concerns about its future, and I'm not the only one. As soon as those languages die, Malayalam is only one of those languages that is next in line.

I cannot overstate how abysmal the language attitudes among Malayalees in general are. In India in general, English is a lot more than just a practical means of communicating with the outside world; it's the language the middle class (and upper class, at least to some extent) uses for communication and thus a symbol of upward social mobility. I'd go so far as to say that most Malayalees consider it trendy and superior to their own language. It's rare that Malayalees say anything positive about their language amongst themselves (EDIT: or indeed in general, but especially amongst themselves). Most literate Malayalees read and write in English more often than in Malayalam. Malayalees rarely write online in Malayalam, even in spaces where all the users present are Malayalees and literate in Malayalam, and even when they do write in it, they almost always use Roman script when they know perfectly well how to read and write in Malayalam. My dad says that one time when he was reading a newspaper or magazine or something in Malayalam, in Kerala, someone criticized him just for reading in Malayalam rather than English. Needless to say, writing in Malayalam, especially for a career, is heavily frowned upon in Kerala. Whenever middle-class Malayalees gather in Kerala for any kind of social occasion, even if not a single person in the room has ever set foot outside of Kerala, they all speak exclusively in English to each other. There are plenty of middle-class Malayalees who know and use swearwords in English, but few are able to swear in their own language.

English-medium schools have been increasingly popular in Kerala since the 1950s, and I've even been told that nowadays, children are made to memorize an entire poem in English on their very first day of school, even though they don't understand a word of it, before they've learned anything about reading or writing in either English or Malayalam. Even in primarily English-speaking countries, Malayalee parents worry a lot about whether their children speak English well enough, and it's not until those same children are in their late teens at the earliest that they even begin to worry about whether they speak Malayalam. The last time I went to Kerala, I interacted with two little girls who spoke to me in Malayalam but counted exclusively in English (I'm not sure they even know how to count in Malayalam), and that was almost fifteen years ago. It has been impossible to find a job that pays reasonably well without some proficiency in English for a longer time than the (modern) state of Kerala has existed.

[Raphael]

Not sure whether to post this here or in the Random Thread in Ephemera, but when all is said and all is done, it is a language-related question: When and why did some British media outlets start calling homeless people "rough sleepers"? It sounds like a rather callous euphemism to me.

[Salmoneus]

Not sure whether to post this here or in the Random Thread in Ephemera, but when all is said and all is done, it is a language-related question: When and why did some British media outlets start calling homeless people "rough sleepers"? It sounds like a rather callous euphemism to me.

It's not just 'media outlets' - that's the usual term for people sleeping rough, from common parlance up to government papers.

Why 'sleeping rough' and not 'homeless'? Because the two terms mean completely different things! Apparently there are around 250,000 homeless people in the UK, but fewer than 5,000 have slept rough in the last year, and probably fewer than half that number are actually sleeping rough on any given night. Homelessness is a leading cause of rough sleeping.

To be "homeless" means to not possess a 'permanent' residence - you don't own a dwelling, you don't rent a dwelling, and you aren't staying with family or friends who consider you a permanent resident there. [as a legal term, there are more requirements]. The vast majority of homeless people still sleep indoors, hower. They may be paying for hotels (/hostels/B&Bs/etc), particularly if they expect their homelessness to be temporary. They may be living at the mercy of friends and relatives, moving around as their hosts get fed up with them or as they stop being able to pay them. They may be living in temporary accomodation provided by the state or a charity - a home that they're temporarily secure in, but have no actual rights to, and that they're expected to move on from eventually. Or they may be living more precariously in shelters, which aren't "theirs" even temporarily but where they can find a bed and a roof. Others may be squatting, adopting homes they have no legal right to.

To "sleep rough" means - well, I don't know the legal definition, but basically it means sleeping on the streets. Many (probably most, though figures have abig margin of error) rough sleepers are not continual rough sleepers - they may sleep rough a few nights a week or a month, when they run out of money for a hostel or the shelter runs out of space. And rough sleeping is not always caused by homelessness. If you sleep on the streets because you got so drunk you couldn't walk home, that's sleeping rough; if you sleep on the streets because you've had a psychotic break and you've forgotten that you have a home, or you think your home is infested with giant mind-controlling wasps, you're sleeping rough; if you sleep on the streets because your father beats you when he's drunk, and you saw him coming home drunk so you thought you didn't want to be around right now, you're sleeping rough; if you sleep on the streets because although you're married and have a legal right to your house, your spouse caught you cheating and kicked you out and you didn't have time to find somewhere else to stay because this is new to you, you're sleeping rough. All these people would be counted as rough sleepers, but they aren't legally homeless. Contrariwise, most homeless people don't sleep rough.

[admittedly, I'm not sure where the precise legal distinction between 'sleeping rough' and 'having an unexpected camping holiday' is located. I suspect this is rarely a politically urgent question.]

If anything "homeless" is often used as a callous euphemism for "sleeping rough"...


[on the linguistic side: I don't know. A quick search turns up Walter Scott talking of people "sleeping rough on the trenches", but that may be poetic.

[Raphael]

Ah, thank you. I noticed it recently and wondered about it because it's so different compared to what I'm used to from American English. Hm, now I wonder how - and if - American English makes the distinction you talk about.

[Vijay]

Never heard of "rough sleepers" in American English

[Raphael]

Never heard of "rough sleepers" in American English

Yeah, so is there any way in it to distinguish between people without a formal residence and people actually sleeping in the street?

[Zaarin]

Never heard of "rough sleepers" in American English

Yeah, so is there any way in it to distinguish between people without a formal residence and people actually sleeping in the street?

My instinct would be to say that the American term "homeless" is equivalent to the British term "rough sleeper" and that we have no term equivalent to British "homeless." Most Americans wouldn't consider someone who has permanent shelter, even if they don't own it, homeless, I don't think (unless it's explicitly a homeless shelter).

[dewrad]

We also have the term "street homeless", which is used to refer to rough sleepers who are also homeless, rather than rough sleepers who are not homeless.

Etymonline cites To lie rough; to lie all night in one's clothes: called also roughing it. Likewise to sleep on the bare deck of a ship, when the person is commonly advised to chuse the softest plank. [Grose, "Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," 1788], so I have a suspicion that "to sleep rough" is of quite an age.

My instinct would be to say that the American term "homeless" is equivalent to the British term "rough sleeper" and that we have no term equivalent to British "homeless." Most Americans wouldn't consider someone who has permanent shelter, even if they don't own it, homeless, I don't think (unless it's explicitly a homeless shelter).

I suspect that Britain has such a precise definition of homelessness because it's encoded in law. I don't know if the US has any laws at the federal/state level outlining what duties (if any) the government has to secure accommodation for homeless people, but in the UK we do and so there has to be a legal definition so people can argue about it.

[linguistcat]

When I hear "roughing it" I think of camping, but not somewhere with even basic amenities like bathrooms or pre-built fire pits (so out in the actual wilderness instead of campgrounds). Likely you are catching your own food and finding water from a natural source as well. While I could see sleeping in the street would also be "roughing it", it wouldn't be the primary meaning for me. People might also joke that they are "roughing it" if the person in the household who does the majority or all the cooking/cleaning etc is out of the house, but it's usually a joke on how bad the remaining people in the household are at those tasks.

[Pabappa]

The term "literally homeless" is used by the U.S. government for those with no reliable place to sleep. Those in this category are given priority for some types of public housing above other homeless categories. You have to prove it's long term and that e.g. your parents aren't just pretending they've thrown you out to get you bumped to the front of the line.

[Hekmatyar]

Yes, of course there are plenty of endangered languages in the world today, and Malayalam is not one of them! But I still have certain concerns about its future, and I'm not the only one. As soon as those languages die, Malayalam is only one of those languages that is next in line.

I cannot overstate how abysmal the language attitudes among Malayalees in general are. In India in general, English is a lot more than just a practical means of communicating with the outside world; it's the language the middle class (and upper class, at least to some extent) uses for communication and thus a symbol of upward social mobility. I'd go so far as to say that most Malayalees consider it trendy and superior to their own language. It's rare that Malayalees say anything positive about their language amongst themselves (EDIT: or indeed in general, but especially amongst themselves). Most literate Malayalees read and write in English more often than in Malayalam. Malayalees rarely write online in Malayalam, even in spaces where all the users present are Malayalees and literate in Malayalam, and even when they do write in it, they almost always use Roman script when they know perfectly well how to read and write in Malayalam. My dad says that one time when he was reading a newspaper or magazine or something in Malayalam, in Kerala, someone criticized him just for reading in Malayalam rather than English. Needless to say, writing in Malayalam, especially for a career, is heavily frowned upon in Kerala. Whenever middle-class Malayalees gather in Kerala for any kind of social occasion, even if not a single person in the room has ever set foot outside of Kerala, they all speak exclusively in English to each other. There are plenty of middle-class Malayalees who know and use swearwords in English, but few are able to swear in their own language.

English-medium schools have been increasingly popular in Kerala since the 1950s, and I've even been told that nowadays, children are made to memorize an entire poem in English on their very first day of school, even though they don't understand a word of it, before they've learned anything about reading or writing in either English or Malayalam. Even in primarily English-speaking countries, Malayalee parents worry a lot about whether their children speak English well enough, and it's not until those same children are in their late teens at the earliest that they even begin to worry about whether they speak Malayalam. The last time I went to Kerala, I interacted with two little girls who spoke to me in Malayalam but counted exclusively in English (I'm not sure they even know how to count in Malayalam), and that was almost fifteen years ago. It has been impossible to find a job that pays reasonably well without some proficiency in English for a longer time than the (modern) state of Kerala has existed.

Thank you for informing us of this, Vijay. I've known quite a few Malaysians, and though I've seen and understood the flaws of some (mainly the flaws of the West, in many ways. Such as over-concern with beauty, social standing through social media, and the like), I'd never known the extent to which English truly dominated the mindsets of people there. It's just more blindness, I suppose. I'm surprised there could be any sense of nationalism amongst people who can't even value something as simple as their own language (and even then, those same people value travelling to the West over staying in their own country). I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Malayalam would truly be on the chopping block by the next, newest generation. I'd say it's on the chopping block right now, now we just wait for the headsman.

On a related note, would you happen to have any reasons for as to why a foreigner should learn Malayalam? I'd been quite interested in it, especially seeing some people post in the "improve your fluency" thread back on Incatena. Due to your post, I can't really see much of a reason, however, I'd be interested to see what you would think. I personally think that there'd be as much reason to learn Malayalam as Ojibwe, but I digress. Thank you in advance for responding, if you do.

[Vijay]

Thank you for informing us of this, Vijay.

Thank you!

I've known quite a few Malaysians

You mean Malayalees?

It's just more blindness, I suppose.

I suspect we've always had a certain inferiority complex regarding our language, even long before the British showed up. The prestige language from a Malayalee perspective used to be Sanskrit, and just a few hundred years ago, higher-caste people in certain contexts at least were very much expected to speak in Sanskrit. Malayalees tend to view Tamil as being even worse (more inferior) than Malayalam, and this seems to be in large part because it has so few Sanskrit loanwords in it (granted, though, I have no idea what the history of this attitude is).

I'm surprised there could be any sense of nationalism amongst people who can't even value something as simple as their own language

There is no sense of Malayalee nationalism among Malayalees AFAICT, only Indian nationalism. Malayalees self-identify pretty strongly as Indians, as do probably most other Indians, at least if they've given any thought to it before. After all, it was the Indian government that created Kerala as a political entity on a linguistic basis (and did something similar in forming the states that constitute the rest of the country).

and even then, those same people value travelling to the West over staying in their own country

I mean, don't most people outside the West value traveling to the West? There are jobs and money in the West. There isn't nearly as much of those things in India.

Bear in mind also that India hasn't been an independent country for all that long (less than a hundred years) and that we didn't have as much freedom of mobility or access to information as we do now.

On a related note, would you happen to have any reasons for as to why a foreigner should learn Malayalam? I'd been quite interested in it, especially seeing some people post in the "improve your fluency" thread back on Incatena. Due to your post, I can't really see much of a reason, however, I'd be interested to see what you would think. I personally think that there'd be as much reason to learn Malayalam as Ojibwe, but I digress. Thank you in advance for responding, if you do.

If you ever go to Kerala, the only way you can really make sure you won't be bored is by speaking in Malayalam to people, especially people who are not so privileged. (They will teach you things you could not possibly learn otherwise, and you won't regret it. I promise). The less you speak it, the more you're confined to talking with middle-class Indians. As a person from a middle-class Indian family myself, I can truthfully tell you that middle-class Indians are boring as hell.

That's the main reason I can think of, but there are more reasons than I can list, and I think all of these reasons are somewhat applicable to a lot of other languages as well, so I'll just list a few more I can think of as I'm writing all this. One reason is that if you're at all interested in learning what it's like to be a documentary linguist, learning Malayalam is a good way to get started because there are almost no books available for learning it, and at some point, the learning process becomes a lot like linguistic fieldwork. Another is that a lot of things in our language just don't translate to English, and our language is a good way to get some insight into our culture. Yet another is that we love jokes that involve puns, especially cross-linguistic ones, and the less interested you are in learning our language, the harder it is for us to share them with you.

[Hekmatyar]

First off, I'll start off by apologizing if I don't address anything. I don't happen to be amazing or know much about how to post yet, using verduria, so I've had to write this with another window, while replying chronologically to each thing you've responded to, Vijay. Sorry for that.

Yes, I had meant Malayalees, forgive me for not knowing the correct term. The Malayalees I've spoken never had any qualms with how I addressed them (e.g. as Malaysian), so I'd figured I was correct in addressing them in that manner. I should've looked it up on google, at the very least, then I could've seen I was talking about people from Malaysia. I feel very horrible over that, actually, for going so long without knowing.

I actually had known that Tamil has less Sanskrit words, however, I hadn't know that Malayalees consider it inferior to their own language. On a related note, I've heard from some Tamil speakers that they view Arabic as superior to Tamil, even if they're not Muslim (which in itself is quite odd, maybe they see the prestige of Arabic as Malayalees see the prestige of English).

Though I had said it in the moment, I should've commented that I'm by no means an expert on Malayalees or the events surrounding, maybe merely an amateur connoisseur, if I were to use so many words. If Malayalees are so keen to go Westward to the US in search of opportunities, why the aversion to opportunities closer to home (China is growing terribly fast, after all).

I'll have to steer clear of middle-class Indians, if they're as horrible as horrible as you've described. I wouldn't want to bog myself down. And thank you for that bit on linguistic fieldwork, that definitely caught my eye, I'll have to look into it a little more. I do love puns.

Again, sorry if I've not acknowledged something you've said, I've gone over twice and it seems like I've gotten all of it.