About 3 weeks late, but I'm nowhere near as active on the ZBB as I used to be:
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
sangi39 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:18 pm
I've been wondering recently if a sort of "central vs. split" + "popular vs geographic" style of voting and elections might make sense (but this could be a UK-centric idea), e.g.:
1) There's some "House" which seats are elected (through some form of proportional representation), on a regional basis, but in a way that no individual region has a majority of seats (this does disproportionately underrepresent some regions at the expense of others)
2) There's some other "House" which is elected, across some larger region, on the basis of population alone (regardless of the number of regions mentioned above, the entire electoral sphere, at this level, would be equally divided on the basis of population)
This is much like the common upper house/lower house system, with the same strengths and drawbacks.
With the common situation of rural places being more conservative than urban ones, and with some careful staging of elections, beware that this has the result of making sure one house remains conservative no matter what damn fool idea the electorate gets.
There are advantages to having two houses. The more checks and balances the better! But I think we could try different ways to elect the upper houses.
I will concede that, typically, rural populations vote more to the "right" (for whatever reasons), but, if this goes alongside the development of a "class consciousness" shared between urban and rural working class populations as "we are, jointly, the proletariat", could that not support that goal of protecting local interests, i.e. the voicing of local concerns?
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
3) Decisions which effect a whole region require a) a majority of sub-regions to vote in favour of that change and b) a majority of the population within that region as a while vote in favour of that change (this, however, I think, is likely to stand in the way of break-away movements within the system, so perhaps moves towards self-determination should only be given local concern)
I think you'd have the same drawbacks with rural areas skewing conservative.
I do think that system would work great for the EU for instance, where the member countries have both more power than the UE itself, and a strong significance. Requiring majority vote would be a big step up! (Our current rule is that some decisions must be unanimous... which means Luxembourg and the Netherlands get to keep being tax havens...)
There is besides a strong case for member countries to be allowed to go to hell in their own private way.
I'm not sure this works in the US, for instance -- both the Electoral College and Senate ensure decision making is more conservative than the majority would wish... On the other hand maybe it's a matter of state boundaries sometimes not making much sense too. (Not an expert in US politics, but shouldn't California be two states? Shouldn't NYC and the rest of Long Island belong with New Jersey and Connecticut rather than with the rest of NY state? Why do you guys need two Dakotas? Shouldn't one be enough?)
Isn't the EU half the size of the US in terms of land area, and about 1/3 larger in terms of population? That could imply that it's an issue of "boundaries", as you've suggested. Like, if the US was divided up in a similar way to the EU, would the US "work better"?
Again though, I think this is one of those larger reforms that goes hand in hand with education. Rural areas might have there own legitimate concerns within a system that aims for large-scale equitable redistribution of resources, if that area's voice gets drowned out by some local urban majority, just because they happen to have more people ("rural conservatism", I think, isn't really that much of an issue as people think it is, once you throw out the old "they're taking your jobs" narrative that maintains it).
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
6) "top-tier" positions are actually devolved positions, e.g. you're not (or the larger council grouping isn't) electing one representative, but you're, instead, electing a person to a certain position (say, minister for health, finance, housing, the environment, etc.)
Can't disagree with that one!
Stole it from Switzerland and from posts further up in the thread. My main concern is that people are voting for single seat positions? So you'd have to decide on how those positions are voted for that isn't as "all or nothing" as FPTP.
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
7) Indirectly elected councils always serve in an advisory role to directly ones elected ones (
Ditto!
I don't know if any countries currently used this system, but it seemed like a nice compromise between "indirectly elected" and "directly elected" at higher levels of representation given that, as far as I can tell, a lot of voters seem to be disconnected from higher positions (especially at supranational levels like in the EU (although, again, I think some of that comes from a lack of political education and engagement)).
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
8) No person can serve more than two terms within an elected position
9) No person can switch directly from a directly elected position and vice versa
I don't know about that. In France we switched rather brutally from politicians that had been around basically forever to relative newcomers.
I'm of two minds about that.
On the plus side, the people who got kicked out deserved to be kicked out. I don't miss them in the slightest.
On the minus side, dear god the newcomers are incompetent. It's painfully obvious their one and only quality is being yes men.
The trouble with kicking out politician early is that the public don't really get to know them, so they depend on more prominent figures for survival, not their voters.
Looking across the borders, it looks like Germany keeps its politicians around basically forever and doesn't seem any less democratic or well-governed for it. (On the other hand, I gather Merkel is an historical accident and that German politicians are generally just as stupid as in country.)
This is why I always say "at a certain level", although I appear to have missed that out in the above.
For example, you can serve on the county level for two terms, but after that, you either ship out, or ship up to the country level, but I also think
maybe there could be some leeway in the system given my point below, e.g. if people don't see anything wrong with your conduct within your position, maybe you can hang on for another term.
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
10) All elected representatives, regardless of "rank", are subject to an "end of term" judgemental procedure (I guess sort of like a mandatory impeachment, to use what I think might be the closest US terminology) - basically everyone is held accountable for any and all actions during time in office, and some randomly elected group of "constituents" and those trained in judicial procedure spend some amount of time going over it (since it's a political matter, though, I can see the need for the judicial portion to exist mostly to maintain proceedings)
In our last presidential campaign, there was an idea I liked a lot, much in the same vein: a procedure for voters to get rid of their representative if they're not happy with them.
I think this is just a VONC, right? But the move comes from the people directly, and is then supported by the judiciary (which could be tricky of you're trying to stick with separation of powers, but I don't see anything wrong with the judiciary being there to at least guide the process, leaving the ultimate decision to people outside of the judiciary, i.e. it's handled as a trail, but the judiciary are there mostly to maintain some semblance of sense, and the further the legitimacy of what is essentially a "people's court".
An "in-term" VONC, from a popular movement, should probably be handled in a similar way, e.g. if, at some point, some number of people within the community agree to a VONC, then that person is held within some state of political "limbo", but the ultimate decision lies with the elected officials.
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
11) There also be a level of sortition involved (honestly, I'm not sure if this is mostly me messing with my own system, but say 5% of any "official" is elected by sortition for like 6 months, just to have a voice)
As long as their opinion counts, yeah, go for it! (We had a randomly selected advisory council for environmental issues. The quality of their recommandations was extremely surprising! Of course we won't listen to them.)
That's why this is the idea I'm least certain of. It seems good in principal, but with (much) shorter terms, and making up a minority, they're probably just going to be there for show. Like, they'd still have the full rights bestowed upon fully elected officials in terms of being able to bring motions to the council, and being able to vote (that is, their role wouldn't, in practice, count for anything less), but really it probably would just be a section of governance with a minor voice... maybe...
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
And then you'd have stuff like "the wage of elected officials is tied to the average wage of people within that region +/- some level of expenses regarding travel.
Agreed on this!
Personally, I think this drags elected officials back towards the people they intend to represent. There's some monetary benefit to being an elected representative, but it's only as good as wider policies make it.
Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 am
Staffing, I guess, could also be an issue. How do you handle the bureaucrats within that system? They can't each be elected by the public, so they have to be brought in by some other method.
I'm mostly in favor of hiring them just like you'd hire anyone else. There needs some kind of system whereby we'd get elite school graduates (ENA, Oxbridge, what have you) because these are great at their job and some out of the box thinkers. I don't know how you'd go about that, though!
Yeah, that makes sense. As long as there's an actual measure for what makes someone a good person for that position, I can't argue with that (maybe some board to prevent nepotism or cronyism?)