Riley’s scratchpad

[Riley]

Introduction

Hey everyone! I’ve been a lurker for a really long time, at least 6 years, but only recently decided to sign up, mostly to motivate myself to start writing again. I’ve been adjacent to the conlanging community for a really long time, but I’m not really experienced, especially compared to the regulars here on the ZBB. Still, I might as well post now that I’m here.

Sheimati (Šę̄imāti-se hadølka) is a moderately synthetic language spoken along the northeastern coast of a continent I have yet to define and in the subtropical forests further inland, from about 30° to 40°N. I’m not really sure where this lang/world is going, but I promise to flesh it out soon enough.

Phonology

Vowels

Depending on the dialect, Sheimati has between 8 and 10 phonemic vowel qualities, with each one coming in short and long versions.

/i iː (y yː) u uː/ i ī y ȳ u ū
/e eː (ø øː) ə əː o oː/ e ē ø ø̄ ə ə̄ o ō
/ɛ ɛː a aː ɔ ɔː/ ę ę̄ a ā ǫ ǭ

In the prescribed standard, there is supposedly no difference in quality between short and long vowels, but in actual speech, it is very common for long vowels to break into diphthongs, and for the short vowel system to be reduced in various ways, depending on the dialect (more on this later). The prestige variety doesn’t preserve the front rounded vowels, merging them with their unrounded counterparts. However, they are very common dialectally, and both morphologically distinct and spelled differently in the native writing system, so I will romanize them differently.

Disclaimer: I still have no idea how to romanize this vowel system.

Consonants

The consonant system of Sheimati is a lot more stable, though there is still some variation.

/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/p b t d ts tʃ k (ɡ)/ p b t d c č k g
/(f) s ʃ x/ f s š h
/β l ɾ j/ v l r j

/f/ and /ɡ/ only occur in loanwords and ideophones, and a relatively small number of speakers realize them as /x/ and /ŋ/, respectively.

/b d ɡ/ are realized as plosives only at the beginning of an utterance and after a nasal, /l/ or /ɾ/. Otherwise, in the onset of an unstressed syllable, they lenite to the corresponding fricatives [β ð ɣ]. In the onset of a stressed syllable, both sets of allophones can occur in free variation; I’ll oversimplify and write them as plosives. Voiced stops do not occur geminated or in the coda.

Short vowels can form diphthongs with a following /j β/; in this environment, /β/ is realized as [u̯] and romanized as w. In the prestige variety, this happens even before vowels: ŋiwa [ˈŋiu̯a] ‘girl’; səčǫjen [ˈsətʃɔi̯en] ‘it is being dragged’. These sequences undergo a lot of mergers across dialects. In all other contexts, /j β/ are true fricatives [ʝ β].

Because of the last two points, the distinction between /b β/ is neutralized in many contexts.

Phonotactics

The maximal syllable structure is CVC. A syllable with a long vowel or a coda consonant is heavy (bimoraic), and one with both is superheavy (trimoraic).

TODO: allowed clusters, phonological processes

Stress

Sheimati words are regularly stressed on the fourth mora from the end. However, if the second and third morae from the end belong to the same syllable, that syllable receives the stress.

For demonstration, here are some forms of the verb ‘to see’:

Present imperfective active: mālidy [ˈmaːliði] ‘I am seeing it’
Present imperfective passive: alidyn [ˈaliðin] ‘I am being seen’

Past perfective active: mālidȳš [maːliˈdiːʃ] ‘I saw it’
Past perfective passive: alidywǫ [ˈaliðiu̯ɔ] ’I was seen’

Recent past perfective active: mālidȳšə [maːliˈdiːʃə] ‘I just saw it’
Recent past perfective passive: alidywǭ [aˈliðiu̯ɔː] ’I was just seen’

[bradrn]

Welcome Riley! Have some pickles and tea:



I can’t say too much about this conlang until I’ve seen some more of it, but I like what I can see so far! The dialectal variation is a particularly nice touch — so few conlang phonologies include that much detail. (Sadly, this covers mine as well ) A few more specific comments:

/i iː (y yː) u uː/ i ī y ȳ u ū
/e eː (ø øː) ə əː o oː/ e ē ø ø̄ ə ə̄ o ō
/ɛ ɛː a aː ɔ ɔː/ ę ę̄ a ā ǫ ǭ

…

Disclaimer: I still have no idea how to romanize this vowel system.

Oh, I think this looks fine, though I’d prefer something like /ɛ ɛː ɔ ɔː/ ⟨è ê ò ô⟩. I also dislike using ⟨y⟩ for vowels, though that’s just personal preference. If you’re really stuck, you can always post it to the Romanization Challenge Thread if you want.

/b d ɡ/ are realized as plosives only at the beginning of an utterance and after a nasal, /l/ or /ɾ/. Otherwise, in the onset of an unstressed syllable, they lenite to the corresponding fricatives [β ð ɣ]. In the onset of a stressed syllable, both sets of allophones can occur in free variation; I’ll oversimplify and write them as plosives. Voiced stops do not occur geminated or in the coda.

My understanding is that this sort of lenition usually occurs intervocalically, rather than in the onset. (It seems weird to me to have a word like /bab/ lenited to [βab], for instance.) I could be wrong though; it would be nice if someone who knows more about this stuff could weigh in.

Sheimati words are regularly stressed on the fourth mora from the end. However, if the second and third morae from the end belong to the same syllable, that syllable receives the stress.

This is the only bit of your phonology which strikes me as being not quite right — ‘fourth mora from the end’ seems like a really weird stress rule to have. (Compare e.g. Gilbertese, which is considered an extreme case for having trimoraic feet.) I’d suggest revising this — you might want to give https://wals.info/chapter/14 a read for some ideas.

[Riley]

/b d ɡ/ are realized as plosives only at the beginning of an utterance and after a nasal, /l/ or /ɾ/. Otherwise, in the onset of an unstressed syllable, they lenite to the corresponding fricatives [β ð ɣ]. In the onset of a stressed syllable, both sets of allophones can occur in free variation; I’ll oversimplify and write them as plosives. Voiced stops do not occur geminated or in the coda.

My understanding is that this sort of lenition usually occurs intervocalically, rather than in the onset. (It seems weird to me to have a word like /bab/ lenited to [βab], for instance.) I could be wrong though; it would be nice if someone who knows more about this stuff could weigh in.

This actually does end up resolving to intervocalic voiced stops for the most part. /bab/ can’t occur because voiced stops are forbidden in the coda, and, though I haven’t precisely defined which clusters are allowed, I don’t expect voiced stops to occur after obstruents except across words. (Or maybe in compounds? I haven’t done derivational morphology yet.) I guess what I meant to say is that they lenite whenever they’re after a phoneme other than /m n ŋ l ɾ/ (so, for the most part, vowels, /j/ and /β/), and in stressed syllables that lenition is optional.

[bradrn]

/b d ɡ/ are realized as plosives only at the beginning of an utterance and after a nasal, /l/ or /ɾ/. Otherwise, in the onset of an unstressed syllable, they lenite to the corresponding fricatives [β ð ɣ]. In the onset of a stressed syllable, both sets of allophones can occur in free variation; I’ll oversimplify and write them as plosives. Voiced stops do not occur geminated or in the coda.

My understanding is that this sort of lenition usually occurs intervocalically, rather than in the onset. (It seems weird to me to have a word like /bab/ lenited to [βab], for instance.) I could be wrong though; it would be nice if someone who knows more about this stuff could weigh in.

This actually does end up resolving to intervocalic voiced stops for the most part. /bab/ can’t occur because voiced stops are forbidden in the coda, and, though I haven’t precisely defined which clusters are allowed, I don’t expect voiced stops to occur after obstruents except across words. (Or maybe in compounds? I haven’t done derivational morphology yet.) I guess what I meant to say is that they lenite whenever they’re after a phoneme other than /m n ŋ l ɾ/ (so, for the most part, vowels, /j/ and /β/), and in stressed syllables that lenition is optional.

Sorry, bad example; I should have used something like /ban/. That is, what happens to voiced consonants in word-initial syllable onsets?

[Riley]

Sorry, bad example; I should have used something like /ban/. That is, what happens to voiced consonants in word-initial syllable onsets?

Depends on the previous word. If it’s after a pause, or if follows a nasal or a liquid, it’s a plosive. Otherwise, it’s a fricative if unstressed and either one if stressed. I should probably have made it clearer that that rule applied across word boundaries.

[Vardelm]

Hey everyone! I’ve been a lurker for a really long time, at least 6 years, but only recently decided to sign up, mostly to motivate myself to start writing again. I’ve been adjacent to the conlanging community for a really long time, but I’m not really experienced, especially compared to the regulars here on the ZBB. Still, I might as well post now that I’m here.

Welcome aboard! You're off to a really good start here, so don't be intimidated by your impressions of the rest of the board. Most of us are still amateur linguists and struggle with some aspect or another of conlanging. Post, take the feedback, make improvements, post again, and enjoy the process.

[Riley]

Sheimati words are regularly stressed on the fourth mora from the end. However, if the second and third morae from the end belong to the same syllable, that syllable receives the stress.

This is the only bit of your phonology which strikes me as being not quite right — ‘fourth mora from the end’ seems like a really weird stress rule to have. (Compare e.g. Gilbertese, which is considered an extreme case for having trimoraic feet.) I’d suggest revising this — you might want to give https://wals.info/chapter/14 a read for some ideas.

I’m currently redoing this, but it turns out a lot of my verb morphology depended on stress and syllable weight, so I’m trying to figure out how to make it work. I’ll be posting some options over the next few days, followed by a master post about the syntax and semantics of Sheimati TAM.

[Riley]

Sequences of two short vowels aren’t allowed.
i u → j v / V_
V₁V₂ → V₁ː / _

Verb roots are two or three morae long, and usually end in a vowel. Examples:

damā- ‘to go (by foot)’
hadøl- ‘to speak’
vęši- ‘to be standing’
mē- ‘to flee, to run away’

The causative is formed by the root extension -ida- or -īda-; the first vowel is lengthened to attract the stress:
adamān [aðaˈmaːn] ’I am going’
*adamāidan [aðaˈmaːiðan] → adamāīdan [aðaˌmaːˈiːðan] ’I am being sent’ (not sure how to translate this)
adamāidawǭ [aðamaːˈiðawɔː] ’I was just sent’ (here the i is already stressed, so it doesn’t lengthen)

[bradrn]

Sheimati words are regularly stressed on the fourth mora from the end. However, if the second and third morae from the end belong to the same syllable, that syllable receives the stress.

This is the only bit of your phonology which strikes me as being not quite right — ‘fourth mora from the end’ seems like a really weird stress rule to have. (Compare e.g. Gilbertese, which is considered an extreme case for having trimoraic feet.) I’d suggest revising this — you might want to give https://wals.info/chapter/14 a read for some ideas.

I’m currently redoing this, but it turns out a lot of my verb morphology depended on stress and syllable weight, so I’m trying to figure out how to make it work. I’ll be posting some options over the next few days, followed by a master post about the syntax and semantics of Sheimati TAM.

Sounds interesting! I look forward to hearing more about this. (There are all too few conlangs with interesting morphophonology…)

… the first vowel [of the causative] is lengthened to attract the stress …

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this, and I’m finding it a bit difficult to figure out what’s happening in the examples. My best guess is that you’re saying that the causative affix must be stressed on the first syllable, and the vowel lengthens if not stressed to ensure this — is this correct? But if so, what happens if the causative cannot be stressed for some reason? (e.g. there’s some material after the causative)

[Riley]

… the first vowel [of the causative] is lengthened to attract the stress …

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this, and I’m finding it a bit difficult to figure out what’s happening in the examples. My best guess is that you’re saying that the causative affix must be stressed on the first syllable, and the vowel lengthens if not stressed to ensure this — is this correct? But if so, what happens if the causative cannot be stressed for some reason? (e.g. there’s some material after the causative)

I hadn’t really considered this, but I don’t think the vowel would lengthen if it couldn’t be stressed either way. In any case, I’m revising the stress rules. They’ll be based on bimoraic feet instead of a single 4-mora foot, but the details aren’t settled yet. I still want for words with only light syllables to have preantepenultimate stress, and for a final superheavy syllable to be stressed, but not a merely heavy one.

[bradrn]

I still want for words with only light syllables to have preantepenultimate stress, and for a final superheavy syllable to be stressed, but not a merely heavy one.

I’d honestly be really surprised to see a language with preantepenultimate stress — it just seems like a bit of an artificial rule to me. (You don’t often get fixed stress outside the first or last three syllables.) On the other hand, it is certainly possible (though very rare) to have stress on superheavy final syllables but not heavy final syllables: it’s attested in Cairene Classical Arabic, for example. You can get it by making a final consonant or long vowel extrametrical, then parsing into moraic trochees from the right:

(ma.ː)(li.dy) → ˌmāˈlidy
a(li.dy)<n> → aˈlidyn
(ma.ː)li(dy.ː)<š> → ˌmāliˈdȳš
(a.li)(dy.wo) → ˌaliˈdywǫ
(ma.ː)li(dy.ː)šə → ˌmāliˈdȳšə
(a.li)(dy.wǫ)<ː> → ˌaliˈdywǭ

EDIT: Fixed mistakes in final example

[Riley]

I still want for words with only light syllables to have preantepenultimate stress, and for a final superheavy syllable to be stressed, but not a merely heavy one.

I’d honestly be really surprised to see a language with preantepenultimate stress — it just seems like a bit of an artificial rule to me. (You don’t often get fixed stress outside the first or last three syllables.) On the other hand, it is certainly possible (though very rare) to have stress on superheavy final syllables but not heavy final syllables: it’s attested in Cairene Classical Arabic, for example. You can get it by making a final consonant or long vowel extrametrical, then parsing into moraic trochees from the right: [...]

Yeah, that’s understandable. In that case I think I’m adopting this rule, but also allowing for the stress to be moved one foot back for prosodic reasons. What would the forms of a root verb starting with a heavy or superheavy syllable look like? Let’s try čōso ‘to look for’ and sə̄rdi- ’to break open’.

	Active	Passive
Present impf.	-ˈčōso -ˈsə̄rdi	-ˈčōson -ˈsə̄rdin
Past perf.	-ˌčōˈsōš -ˌsə̄rˈdīš	-ˌčōˈsowǫ -ˌsə̄rˈdiwǫ
Recent past perf.	-ˌčōˈsōšəm -ˌsə̄rˈdīšəm	-ˌčōsoˈwǭm -ˌsə̄rdiˈwǭm
Past impf.	-ˌčōˈsora -ˌsə̄rˈdira	-ˌčōˈsōē -ˌsə̄rˈdīē
Irrealis impf.	-ˌčōˈsohaj -ˌsə̄rˈdihaj	-ˌčōsoˈhajn -ˌsə̄rdiˈhajn
Irrealis perf.	-ˌčōsoˈkīaš -ˌsə̄rdiˈkīaš	-ˌčōsoˈkīwǫ -ˌsə̄rdiˈkīwǫ

Ok, apparently the weight of the first syllable of the verb root doesn’t actually do much. (Well, it ensures that a monomoraic person marker like a- ‘1SG.NOM’ or sə- ‘3SG.NOM’ can’t receive secondary stress.)

[Vijay]

I’d honestly be really surprised to see a language with preantepenultimate stress

Extraordinary!

[bradrn]

I’d honestly be really surprised to see a language with preantepenultimate stress

Extraordinary!

Regular preantepenultimate stress, that is. Occasional preantepenultimate stress is nothing unusual, especially in a language with stress as non-regular as English.

[Vijay]

IIRC Turkish has a rule where the syllable just before the negative suffix is stressed, and it's not uncommon for that suffix to be followed by another disyllabic suffix, e.g. olamazsınız 'you (plural or formal) can't be'.