Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Creyeditor]

Well, "jetzt" meaning "now" can be used in a nominalized forms "das Jetzt" or "das Hier und Jetzt". Cognate to English "yet", IINM.

[Vijay]

Thanks everyone for your replies!

Maybe it's "against" in the sense of "being in front of (against) someone as an obstacle". That is, the present is the thing right in front of you, "againstward" you.

That makes sense.

Consulting the German dictionary I use as a reference all the time, gegen has way more meanings than just "against".

The common thread there seems to be being in front of something, which could be related to the present pretty easily.

These are true.

Well, "jetzt" meaning "now" can be used in a nominalized forms "das Jetzt" or "das Hier und Jetzt". Cognate to English "yet", IINM.

Huh, I don't think I was aware of any of this.

[Kuchigakatai]

Just having fun modernizing bits of Middle English, after seeing Otto's thread. In the Spanish world, it's very normal to publish Old Spanish texts with a fairly modernized look, but this seems to be rarely done in the English world for Middle English. Well, punctuation may be added, and yogh may be turned to -gh-, but modernization of medieval text in the Spanish world seems heavier.

Say, this random passage of the Cid:

Hẏo uos digo çid por toda caridad
Q̃ oy los yfantes ami por amo non abran
Curielos qⁱ qⁱer ca dellos poco mincal
Hyo cõ los myos ferir qⁱero delant
Vos cõ los u͠ros firme mientre ala çaga tengades
Si cueta fuere biẽ me podredes huuiar
(Poem of the Cid, circa 1200, in a copy from the 1300s, lines 2355-2360)

...could be modernized, as it is often done, as:

Yo vos digo, Cid, por toda caridad,
Que hoy los infantes a mí por amo non habrán.
Cúrielos quiquiera ca d'ellos poco m'incal.
Yo con los míos herir quiero delant;
vos con los vuestros firmemente a la zaga tengades.
Si cuita fuere, bien me podréis uviar.
I tell you, Cid, with all charity, that today the princelings won't have me as an underlord. Anyone else may look after them, as I'm hardly concerned about them. I want to go with my men to the front; you, with your men, firmly hold at the rear. If there is a need, you can very well reach me [as reinforcements].

And some editions, I'm sure, would also repair the -e incal > incale, delant > delante, and separate the function words in d'ellos > "de ellos", m'incal > "me incale"...

Now let's do that with the opening of a contemporary Middle English text, from the same era:

An preoſt wes on leoden : laȝamon wes ihoten.
he wes leouenaðes ſone : liðe him beo drihtẽ.
he wonede at ernleȝe : at æðelen are chirechen.
vppen seuarne ſtaþe : sel þar him þuhte.
on fest radeſtone : þer he bock radde.
(Layamon's Brut, also circa 1200, Caligula manuscript lines 1-6, from a 1847 edition on Google Books)

If you've looked at Middle English texts before, this probably strikes you as very normal. What if we modernized it to the following?

A priest was on lede, Layamon was hoten;
he was Levenath's son, lithe him be Dright!
He woned at Ernley, at ethel here church.
Upon Severn stathe — seel there him thought —
on fest Radestone, there he books read.
There was once a priest in the nation; he was called Layamon. He was Levenath's son, may the Lord be gracious on him! He lived at Ernley, at a noble church here, upon the Severn bank — it seemed good to him there — near Radestone, where he'd read books.

A bit more understandable, although it's still largely unreadable. And my adaptation of þer as "there" seems questionable (is this the article "the" in some case form?). Then again, that's true of the modernized Old Spanish above, too...

[Raphael]

Unrelated to previous posts - some I know and me have a kind of in-joke where we purposefully mispronounce specific words in predictable ways, for instance, by pronouncing short vowels as long vowels, and now I wonder how common that kind of thing is.

[Linguoboy]

Do you mean those particular modifications or joking pronunciations in general?

[Raphael]

Joking pronunciations in general.

[Linguoboy]

Joking pronunciations in general.

I think these are a pretty common in-group phenomenon. One I was just thinking of last night: two of my friends like to insert extra t's into certain words, e.g. "Tina Turner" > "Tinta Turnter".

In my high school, one of the most common alterations was /st/ > /ʃt/, e.g. "stuff" > "shtuff". Sometimes this was combined with other changes, e.g. "Steve" > [ʃtəif].

In college, a friend of mine like to jokingly vocalise coda [ɫ], e.g. "little people" > "litto peopo". I would do this, too, often saying to my husband "I need to take my [pʰiʊ̯z]" (i.e. "pills").

[Travis B.]

In my high school, one of the most common alterations was /st/ > /ʃt/, e.g. "stuff" > "shtuff". Sometimes this was combined with other changes, e.g. "Steve" > [ʃtəif].

I am familiar with this as well. I suspect that it is due to Yiddish influence myself.

[Linguoboy]

In my high school, one of the most common alterations was /st/ > /ʃt/, e.g. "stuff" > "shtuff". Sometimes this was combined with other changes, e.g. "Steve" > [ʃtəif].

I am familiar with this as well. I suspect that it is due to Yiddish influence myself.

I wonder. This was not a milieu where I'd expect much familiarity with Yinglish (a private Catholic high school) and it wasn't extended to /sm/ nor was it accompanied by other Yiddishisms.

[bradrn]

In college, a friend of mine like to jokingly vocalise coda [ɫ], e.g. "little people" > "litto peopo". I would do this, too, often saying to my husband "I need to take my [pʰiʊ̯z]" (i.e. "pills").

You have this as a joke‽ I find that surprising — for me, this is just my normal speech: [ˈlɪɾuˈpʰiːpʰu], [əˈniːdᶻə tˢæiˀk məˈpʰiʊ̆z]. I wonder how this variation arose for you, especially if it’s not normal where you live.

[Travis B.]

In college, a friend of mine like to jokingly vocalise coda [ɫ], e.g. "little people" > "litto peopo". I would do this, too, often saying to my husband "I need to take my [pʰiʊ̯z]" (i.e. "pills").

You have this as a joke‽ I find that surprising — for me, this is just my normal speech: [ˈlɪɾuˈpʰiːpʰu], [əˈniːdᶻə tˢæiˀk məˈpʰiʊ̆z]. I wonder how this variation arose for you, especially if it’s not normal where you live.

Here, people vocalize their coda and intervocalic /l/'s almost invariably.

[Linguoboy]

In college, a friend of mine like to jokingly vocalise coda [ɫ], e.g. "little people" > "litto peopo". I would do this, too, often saying to my husband "I need to take my [pʰiʊ̯z]" (i.e. "pills").

You have this as a joke‽ I find that surprising — for me, this is just my normal speech: [ˈlɪɾuˈpʰiːpʰu], [əˈniːdᶻə tˢæiˀk məˈpʰiʊ̆z]. I wonder how this variation arose for you, especially if it’s not normal where you live.

Where I live, it's not usual except among speakers of AAVE. According to my friend, she had a cousin who spoke this way who she used to imitate. One day we saw some children playing and she said "Oh look, litto peopo!" and then felt she had to explain why she said it like that. Afterwards, it became an in-joke. (Incidentally, she pronounced "little" in this case with [tʰ] rather than her usual [ɾ]. I don't know if this was also in imitation of her cousin of if there was some other motivation.)

[Vijay]

Unrelated to previous posts - some I know and me have a kind of in-joke where we purposefully mispronounce specific words in predictable ways, for instance, by pronouncing short vowels as long vowels, and now I wonder how common that kind of thing is.

I guess this is pretty common. There are language games like Pig Latin. There's another called Zargari in Iran where, for every CV sequence, you add [z] + the same vowel, so for example, chetori? 'how are you?' becomes chezetozorizi?

Apparently, people in the fishing community where my parents come from commonly and unironically (but not always) pronounce short vowels as long vowels.

[bradrn]

Quick language identification question: I seem to remember reading about a language, probably Papuan, with pervasive multiple infixation (and possibly nested infixation as well). However, I can’t seem to find it now. Does anyone here happen to know which language that could be?

[Nortaneous]

Quick language identification question: I seem to remember reading about a language, probably Papuan, with pervasive multiple infixation (and possibly nested infixation as well). However, I can’t seem to find it now. Does anyone here happen to know which language that could be?

Begak? An Aslian language? (Semai? Jahai?) Hua?

[bradrn]

Quick language identification question: I seem to remember reading about a language, probably Papuan, with pervasive multiple infixation (and possibly nested infixation as well). However, I can’t seem to find it now. Does anyone here happen to know which language that could be?

Begak? An Aslian language? (Semai? Jahai?) Hua?

None of those, sorry.

One thing which may or may not help: if I remember correctly (a big ‘if’), the grammar I read was obviously typeset in LaTeX.

[quinterbeck]

In this song by Welsh speaking band Sŵnami: Uno, Cydio, Tanio, the lead singer aspirates the /t/ in tanio so strongly it sounds like [t͡s] to me.

[Vijay]

Quick language identification question: I seem to remember reading about a language, probably Papuan, with pervasive multiple infixation (and possibly nested infixation as well). However, I can’t seem to find it now. Does anyone here happen to know which language that could be?

Yeri/Yapunda? Yagaria?

Incidentally, the Global Recordings Network tried to make recordings in Zargari, a variety of Romani spoken in Iran, and instead got recordings in Zargari, the Pig-Latin-ish language game of the same name that I mentioned above.

[bradrn]

Quick language identification question: I seem to remember reading about a language, probably Papuan, with pervasive multiple infixation (and possibly nested infixation as well). However, I can’t seem to find it now. Does anyone here happen to know which language that could be?

Yeri/Yapunda? Yagaria?

Not Yeri. Yagaria was already suggested (under the name Hua).

[Vijay]

Yawa? Yareba? Coastal Marind? Meriam Mir?