Conlang Random Thread

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jal
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by jal »

Raholeun wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:43 amWhat happened to the translation of The Hobbit? Is it finished?
I wish! I got stuck in chapter 5, the one where they get underground and fight with the orcs, and abandoned the project for a while. "Stuck" in a sense that the specific chapter is full with aliteration, nonse words, dozens of synonyms and so on and so forth, and really difficult to get through. But I'm definitely planning on continuing once I've finished some other stuff.


JAL
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Jonlang
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Jonlang »

Has anyone here created a conlang (or family) which they developed from a proto-lang inspired by the PIE system for building words? Like root + suffix = stem; stem + ending = word and then apply a whole load of sound changes to give desired target language's vocabulary?
Unsuccessfully conlanging since 1999.
Ahzoh
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ahzoh »

I had a weird dream about there being a last speaker of a dying Polynesian language that had weird phonemes like /ʰʔ/<~>, /e̯ʲˤ/<w>, and /wʲˀ/ but no /j/ or /w/ of any sort.

I dont know any Polynesian phoneme inventories but thats not it.

Ah yes and the language has “poor documentation because the only time anybody wanted to speak to the man was to curry favor”


I don’t usually get oneiroglossic ideas like this.
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WeepingElf
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Jonlang wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:04 am Has anyone here created a conlang (or family) which they developed from a proto-lang inspired by the PIE system for building words? Like root + suffix = stem; stem + ending = word and then apply a whole load of sound changes to give desired target language's vocabulary?
My main conlang Old Albic and most of my side projects are Indo-European, so they more or less work that way.
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My conlang pages
Killerwhale
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Killerwhale »

Has voicing of the consonant before the vowel, as opposed to after, ever transitioned into vowel length?
Creyeditor
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Creyeditor »

So something like *ba -> pa:, but pa -> pa.
I don't think this has been transferred directly, but I could imagine it happening via an intermediate state of contrastively breathy or low toned vowels.
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Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Creyeditor wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:44 am So something like *ba -> pa:, but pa -> pa.
I don't think this has been transferred directly, but I could imagine it happening via an intermediate state of contrastively breathy or low toned vowels.
I could see it going something like:

/ba/ > [bà] (voiced obstruents trigger a pitch drop) > [bàː] (allophonic length on low-pitch vowels) > [pàː] (voicing distinction loss) > [paː] (length becomes the contrast rather than pitch)
Qwynegold
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

dɮ the phoneme wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:20 pm I want to start working on a totally new language family, preferably something quite shallow so I can explore dialect variation more easily (which is one of the things I used to enjoy most about conlanging, but recently most of my projects have been very deep families where if I went into detail on every dialect of every stage I'd never get anywhere). However, everything I come up with for the proto-language just feels... uninspired? Dull?

Has anyone had this problem before? What did you do
This is most likely of no use this long after you posted, but I have made a conlang design challenge. I thought I had posted it on this forum, but can't find it. Luckily, I had saved everything in a document on my computer:
More: show
The aim of this challenge is to create a sketch of a conlang that doesn't look like any particular natlang. If you want to create a real conlang and are looking for inspiration, then please use this challenge as a base.

Choose one feature from each of the three groups below, or alternatively, choose two features from one group, and one feature from each of the other groups. You must choose at least one blue feature and one red feature. Try to choose a combination of features that you don't know of any other language having. (If you find out later that there is indeed another language with all these features, that's fine.)

Group A
A1 Two or more laterals, not counting /l̪, l, ɫ, ʎ, Cˡ/. This feature may not be combined with feature B2.
A2 Fixed stress location of a type that you seldom or never use in conlangs. When affixes are added to a word, the stress moves so that it will stay on the specificly numbered syllable.
A3 Length contrast on vowels or consonants, that includes short phonemes, long phonemes and one more of the following: extra short phonemes, ◌̆; half-long phonemes, ◌ˑ; overlong phonemes, ◌ːː. Not every consonant or vowel or tone needs to have a three-way contrast, but at least one consonant or vowel needs to have all three.
A4 Consonant mutation
A5 Inflected adpositions
A6 Large amounts of non-concatenative morphology
A7 An animacy hierarchy alignment

Group B
B1 No phonemic nasals
B2 No phonemic rhotics and no phonemic laterals. This feature may not be combined with feature A1 or feature C6.
B3 (C)V syllable structure1
B4 Grammatical tone
B5 Noun classes
B6 Uses prefixes way more often than suffixes
B7 Four or more distance contasts in demonstratives
B8 Verbs have person marking that agrees with the patient, but no agreement with the agent

Group C
C1 Lexical tone
C2 No phonemic fricatives
C3 A retroflex series, and not just on fricatives/affricates
C4 A series of breathy consonants (may or may not be coupled with an aspirated series)
C5 Phonation contrasts on vowels, e.g. breathy voice, creaky voice, strident voice
C6 One or more laterally released consonant, ◌ˡ. This feature may not be combined with feature B2.
C7 Sesquisyllabic root words, i.e. roots are either 1 or 1.5 syllables
C8 Conjunction of noun phrases works differently than conjunction of verb phrases
C9 Several postpositions, but few or no prepositions
C10 Genitives, adjectives and relative clause are formed largely/completely in the same way, using the same morphemes WALS

1If you are thinking "nah, (C)V languages are boring", then challenge yourself by creating an esthetically pleasing (C)V language. Here are six tips on what you can do to make the conlang more interesting.
  • Think about phoneme frequencies. For example, what would a language where /r, l, i/ are very common look like.
  • Make a limit on how many vowels you can have in succession. Or make vowel sequences uncommon.
  • Make restrictions on which vowels may appear next to one another.
  • Create a sound change to put epenthetic consonants between vowels in the same word, so only the initial syllable can consist of just V, while all other syllables are CV.
  • Include consonants that look like clusters, but are actually just one consonant. For example prenasalized consonants, palatal or palatalized consonants, labialized consonants, things like /k͡p, ʙ, t͡r̻/. If you choose to have e.g. palatalized or labialized consonants, maybe restrict this secondary feature to only some consonants, e.g. labialization only on velar consonants.
  • Make a large vowel inventory.
Show a sketch of your language in this thread.
bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Interesting challenge — I think I’ll have a go. Not sure how much time I’ll have to do this soon, so let me pre-register my choices:
  • A2 Fixed stress location of a type that you seldom or never use in conlangs. When affixes are added to a word, the stress moves so that it will stay on the specificly numbered syllable.
  • A4 Consonant mutation
  • B6 Uses prefixes way more often than suffixes
  • C3 A retroflex series, and not just on fricatives/affricates
Oh, and if we have to show a sketch in this thread, then could someone split this off as a separate ‘Conlang Challenge Thread’ or something?
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
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Ahzoh
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ahzoh »

I had come up with a deverbal pattern that I have that fills the purpose of an infinitive, gerund, and action noun. It is the pattern PaRūḪur-im

I like the way it looks in most cases, but I feel it is rather too long and clunky for the role it plays. I suppose I could shorten it to PuRḪurim and it wouldn't change much for the weak-radical roots. But it doesn't have quite the same... "energy".

There is also the pattern I have PiRḪīnim use to turn nouns into "X-hood, X-ness" nouns but I might extend it to verbs.
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Jonlang
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Jonlang »

So, after a looooong–ass time of doing very little conlanging (other than noting down ideas) over the past 18 months to 2 years I've finally thrown out most of the work I had done for my PQL project. I'm now picking up the pieces of what remains and I am starting over (kinda). Most of the sound changes I had are the same, but what I wanted to achieve just wasn't happening, and I've learnt a lot more since beginning the PQL project (and spent a lot more of my hard-earned pennies on books). But, as well as the PQL project there is now also an NA project (again, placeholder names) which existed before but now there's some pile of notes to work through, and an S project. However, all apart from P and L are in the doodling phase. P is my main focus. The naming convention is basically for the natlangs/families which inspire them P-Celtic, Q-Celtic, Latin, Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Semitic. I may get to N, A, and S sometime before I die, but I'm not promising anything. I fully intend to neglect my home life and work life for the foreseeable future in order to get some serious work done, so wish me luck.
Unsuccessfully conlanging since 1999.
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Raholeun
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Raholeun »

Jonlang wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am So, after a looooong–ass time of doing very little conlanging (other than noting down ideas) over the past 18 months to 2 years [...] I fully intend to neglect my home life and work life for the foreseeable future in order to get some serious work done, so wish me luck.
Very recognizable. I wish you lots of creative energy. I have been pushing my bed time up too, to accomodate this temporary burst of conlanging monomania.
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jal
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by jal »

Jonlang wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 amI fully intend to neglect my home life and work life for the foreseeable future in order to get some serious work done, so wish me luck.
Good luck!


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Ares Land
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ares Land »

Jonlang wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am I fully intend to neglect my home life and work life for the foreseeable future in order to get some serious work done, so wish me luck.
Oh, now I picture you sitting wild-eyed at a table, with a bottle of absinthe and grammar of Old Irish at hand, harried children running around crying...

Seriously, though, good luck!
Ahzoh
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ahzoh »

There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
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Znex
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Znex »

Ahzoh wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 pm There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
Aren't Semitic languages essentially a combination of?

eg. In Biblical Hebrew at least, the perfective tense is suffixing and the imperfective tense prefixing.
Ahzoh
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ahzoh »

Znex wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:25 am
Ahzoh wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 pm There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
Aren't Semitic languages essentially a combination of?

eg. In Biblical Hebrew at least, the perfective tense is suffixing and the imperfective tense prefixing.
It feels like the languages are more prefixing than suffixing, especially when it comes to verbs. You've got the subject agreement prefixes and the verb-to-verb derivation prefixes and the mV- and tV- deverbal nominalizers. And those prefixes seem to be the most prominent, especially in older languages like Akkadian. Mind you there is a fair number of nominalizing suffixes, something like -an- used to create abstracts. And there's the object and possessive clitics.

The guides I've seen make it seem like prefixes are pretty much required to create the system, because you need some way to turn CVCVC- and CVCC-shaped stems into CCVC-shaped stems and vice-versa.
Ares Land
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ares Land »

Ahzoh wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 pm There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
It's not terribly different.
There are three tricks involved: a) add rules that alter vowel qualities in different environments b) add a syncope rule c) generalize the results everywhere.

besam is 'to built' in your proto language.

For the present, just add personal suffixes:
besam 'he builds', besam-o 'I build'.
For the perfect, add -iis before the personal ending:
besam-iis 'he built', besam-iis-o 'I build'
For the future, add ʔu after the personal ending:
besam-ʔu 'he will build' besam-o-ʔu 'I will build'

Add a few sound changes:

- Stress falls on the penultimate if long, otherwise on the last vowel.
- e o > i u when followed by /i, u/ anywhere
- s > r intervocally;
- Syncope before the stressed syllable.
- Lose the last vowel if it's not stressed.
- For good measure, lose the first vowel if there are more than two syllables
- The glottal stop is lost.

besam-o 'I build' > be.sa'mo > besmo
besam 'He builds' > be'sam > bsam
besam-iis-o 'I built' > be.sam'iis.o > bes.'miis.o > bis.'mis.o > bis.'mir.o > bismir
besam-iis 'He built' > be.sam.iis > bi.sam.iis > bismis
besam-o-ʔu 'I shall build' > be.sam.o.ʔu > be.sam.u'ʔu > bisamlu > bsamʔu > bsamu
besam-tu 'he shall build' > be.sam.tu > be.sam.'tu > bismʔu > bismu


Then you got your triconsonantal pattern:
1p present: CeCCo
3p present: CCaC
1p perfect: CiCCir
3p perfect: CiCCis
1p future: CCaCu
3p future: CCiCu
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Jonlang
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Jonlang »

Ares Land wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:27 am
Jonlang wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:30 am I fully intend to neglect my home life and work life for the foreseeable future in order to get some serious work done, so wish me luck.
Oh, now I picture you sitting wild-eyed at a table, with a bottle of absinthe and grammar of Old Irish at hand, harried children running around crying...

Seriously, though, good luck!
Luckily, I am childless :D
Ahzoh wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 pm There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
I am being a bit lazy with my tri-consonantal root Semitic-y conlang in that it is an in-world conlang and so it won't be "evolved" like the others.
Unsuccessfully conlanging since 1999.
bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:34 am
Ahzoh wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 pm There are many guides on how to make a triconlang, but what is a bit annoying is that they're all based on languages with right-leaning stress and primarily prefixing with prefixed person markers. There are none for doing it with languages with right-leaning stress that are primarily suffixal with suffixed person markers.

The same principles could be involved, but a very different result could be produced.
It's not terribly different.
There are three tricks involved: a) add rules that alter vowel qualities in different environments b) add a syncope rule c) generalize the results everywhere.
Thank you for this concise and clear explanation of how triconsonality evolved. I’ve read through both zompist’s explanation and the explanation from Deutscher which he based it on, and this is the first time it’s properly ‘clicked’ for me.

But also: d) roots should be triconsonantal to begin with and e) the syncope rule needs to delete different syllables depending on the affixes added.

(One thing I’ve long pondered about triconsonality, by the way, is why it’s so rare. In our world, it seems to be just one of those unique quirks which pop up from time to time, like Austronesian alignment or distributed exponence or IE-style fusion, and up to now I saw no reason why it should be attested in any conworld, or even any language outside Semitic. But from what you’re saying, it sounds like it’s a feature which is really easy to evolve — vowel mutation, syncope and analogy rules aren’t exactly hard to come by. Perhaps it’s just rare to have all of (a–e) happen to the same language in the right order, even if each by itself is common.)
- Stress falls on the penultimate if long, otherwise on the last vowel.
- e o > i u when followed by /i, u/ anywhere
- s > r intervocally;
- Syncope before the stressed syllable.
- Lose the last vowel if it's not stressed.
- For good measure, lose the first vowel if there are more than two syllables
- The glottal stop is lost.

besam-o 'I build' > be.sa'mo > besmo
besam 'He builds' > be'sam > bsam
besam-iis-o 'I built' > be.sam'iis.o > bes.'miis.o > bis.'mis.o > bis.'mir.o > bismir
besam-iis 'He built' > be.sam.iis > bi.sam.iis > bismis
besam-o-ʔu 'I shall build' > be.sam.o.ʔu > be.sam.u'ʔu > bisamlu > bsamʔu > bsamu
besam-tu 'he shall build' > be.sam.tu > be.sam.'tu > bismʔu > bismu
Unless I’m missing something, shouldn’t the syncope rule come before e→i here?

Also, how would this work for roots where the first proto-vowel isn’t one of /e o/? Though I’m assuming you could simply add more vowel shift rules.
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