The Contradictory Feelings Thread

[Pedant]

Despite everything that’s been discovered recently, I want to celebrate Canada Day. It’s my home--not the only one I’ve ever known, but my birthplace and the one I choose to be my home. But the public mood seems against it, and I worry about losing any good impression I might have not only with colleagues but also with potential employers. It seems more fashionable to cancel the day and indulge in self-flagellation, instead of using it as a way of pushing forward, and celebrating that we can do so. And that makes me sad. Maybe that’s what Canada is, maybe that’s the case, but it’s not what it’s meant to be.
I dunno.

[Travis B.]

Despite everything that’s been discovered recently, I want to celebrate Canada Day. It’s my home--not the only one I’ve ever known, but my birthplace and the one I choose to be my home. But the public mood seems against it, and I worry about losing any good impression I might have not only with colleagues but also with potential employers. It seems more fashionable to cancel the day and indulge in self-flagellation, instead of using it as a way of pushing forward, and celebrating that we can do so. And that makes me sad. Maybe that’s what Canada is, maybe that’s the case, but it’s not what it’s meant to be.
I dunno.

By the logic used to deprecate Canada Day, one could say that all nationalism in neo-European societies ought to be abandoned, since the creation of such societies involved the ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation at best and the genocide at worst of native populations (and in the case of the US, the large-scale use of slavery). Yet at the time, should the sins of the fathers be visited upon the sons? I would say no - you did not choose to be born in Canada, you are not responsible of the actions of past Canadians towards the First Nations, should you feel guilty for something you have no responsibility for? It is one thing to recognize the crimes committed in the past, for certain, it is another thing to assume guilt for them today.

[KathTheDragon]

On the other hand, nationalistic celebration is easily seen as condoning the nation's heritage - including the ugly and nowadays reprehensible parts.

[Travis B.]

On the other hand, nationalistic celebration is easily seen as condoning the nation's heritage - including the ugly and nowadays reprehensible parts.

The question I have is whether one is necessarily condoning all of a nation's history through nationalistic celebration. For instance, slavery is a major part of America's history, yet I highly doubt anyone is condoning slavery when they celebrate the Fourth of July here in the US.

[Pedant]

Nobody celebrates mass sterilization or caste-based discrimination on Republic Day in India (quite certain). Nobody celebrates the Polish cultural genocide of the 1930s/40s on Russia Day or Independence Day in Ukraine (pretty sure). Nobody celebrates the genocide of 800,000 Tutsis on Indepedence Day in Rwanda (pretty darn sure). And nobody celebrates the residential schools on Canada Day (absolutely certain). Being proud to live in a place doesn’t mean condoning its worst actions--it just means being able to focus on the best the country brings about, and setting out to fix the worst of it.

[Linguoboy]

By the logic used to deprecate Canada Day, one could say that all nationalism in neo-European societies ought to be abandoned, since the creation of such societies involved the ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation at best and the genocide at worst of native populations (and in the case of the US, the large-scale use of slavery).

Yup.

Oh wait, you were being rhetorical?

Yet at the time, should the sins of the fathers be visited upon the sons?

The last residential school in Canada closed in 1997.

[Travis B.]

By the logic used to deprecate Canada Day, one could say that all nationalism in neo-European societies ought to be abandoned, since the creation of such societies involved the ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation at best and the genocide at worst of native populations (and in the case of the US, the large-scale use of slavery).

Yup.

Oh wait, you were being rhetorical?

Just making the point that if one treats nationalism as an endorsement of everything a nation-state has done throughout its history, very few if any nationalisms ought to not be abandoned. Of course, the rhetorical part is because one might question whether nationalism necessarily endorses a nation-state's entire history.

Yet at the time, should the sins of the fathers be visited upon the sons?

The last residential school in Canada closed in 1997.

Tis true. I just looked it up, and also, the last residential school in the US closed in 1996, so all of this is within the lifetimes and likely the memories of most ZBB users (I would think, unless we have a rather young population here now).

Actually, I searched for US and got a Canadian page. What I get from searching further for the US is that apparently most of the Indian boarding schools in the US had closed by 2007, but apparently there is the possibility that some still exist...

Again, though, are all Canadians responsible for these schools and their abuses, or do they form a collective stain on the Canadian nation such that Canadians would be necessarily celebrating them if they celebrated Canada Day?

[Linguoboy]

Again, though, are all Canadians responsible for these schools and their abuses, or do they form a collective stain on the Canadian nation such that Canadians would be necessarily celebrating them if they celebrated Canada Day?

Why don’t you ask some of the thousands of living survivors of the residential school system and their direct descendants what they think? Do you think they can easily separate out the nation’s glorious achievements from its shameful failures when they see a stage decked in maple leaf bunting and flanked by Mounties?

I’m not indigenous so I can’t speak to what that’s like. I will say though that as a USAmerican queer I have real mixed feelings about the Stars and Stripes because of some of the things that have been done to me by people proudly flying that flag.

[Travis B.]

Again, though, are all Canadians responsible for these schools and their abuses, or do they form a collective stain on the Canadian nation such that Canadians would be necessarily celebrating them if they celebrated Canada Day?

Why don’t you ask some of the thousands of living survivors of the residential school system and their direct descendants what they think? Do you think they can easily separate out the nation’s glorious achievements from its shameful failures when they see a stage decked in maple leaf bunting and flanked by Mounties?

I’m not indigenous so I can’t speak to what that’s like. I will say though that as a USAmerican queer I have real mixed feelings about the Stars and Stripes because of some of the things that have been done to me by people proudly flying that flag.

To be completely honest, I think much of the American nationalist shtick is completely over the top, and makes Canadian nationalism seem, well, restrained, and I bet the US has done far worse than the Canadians have (yes, we don't have stats on the number of bodies buried, but if the Canadians have them, I'm certain us Americans have them too). When Americans celebrate the Fourth, we overlook the many very ugly parts of America's past, ranging from the ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation/genocide of the native population, to slavery, to Jim Crow, to eugenics, to the Japanese Internment, to the often violent oppression of labor activism in the past, to both Red Scares, to American imperialism, to the continued oppression of PoC's, and so on. There is a clear distinction between these things and what people are celebrating. Of course, whether we should be recognizing these things rather than looking past them is another matter; it is doubtful that people will, though, considering the strong tendency of Americans to only regard the many ugly parts of American history in passing or as separate from American history overall.

[Ares Land]

The good thing about Bastille Day is that if, like me, you're entirely unable to conjure the proper patriotic republican feelings, there's still something to celebrate in the thought of a stupid and nasty ruling class getting, ahem, cut short.

(I get the party-and-fireworks bit but I don't see why we need a Soviet-style parade to show off the current president's humongous phallic toys tho'.)

[Travis B.]

The good thing about Bastille Day is that if, like me, you're entirely unable to conjure the proper patriotic republican feelings, there's still something to celebrate in the thought of a stupid and nasty ruling class getting, ahem, cut short.

Of course that quickly turned into anyone the Jacobins didn't like at the very moment getting shortened as well, not just royalists and other hold-overs from the Ancien Régime.

(I get the party-and-fireworks bit but I don't see why we need a Soviet-style parade to show off the current president's humongous phallic toys tho'.)

Even here in the US of all places we've decided that actual military parades are a bit much; consider the reactions when the orange one suggested we have one.

[Nortaneous]

To be completely honest, I think much of the American nationalist shtick is completely over the top,

Not over the top enough - some states ban the public sale of fireworks! What are people supposed to celebrate with? Sparklers?

[Travis B.]

To be completely honest, I think much of the American nationalist shtick is completely over the top,

Not over the top enough - some states ban the public sale of fireworks! What are people supposed to celebrate with? Sparklers?

In Illinois the public sale of fireworks is banned, so people drive up to Wisconsin to buy fireworks so they can fire them off illegally.

[Linguoboy]

In Illinois the public sale of fireworks is banned, so people drive up to Wisconsin to buy fireworks so they can fire them off illegally.

Or down to Missouri. Or over to Indiana. In fact, the only state bordering Illinois where you can't drive to to buy fireworks is Iowa.

[Linguoboy]

When Americans celebrate the Fourth, we overlook the many very ugly parts of America's past, ranging from the ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation/genocide of the native population, to slavery, to Jim Crow, to eugenics, to the Japanese Internment, to the often violent oppression of labor activism in the past, to both Red Scares, to American imperialism, to the continued oppression of PoC's, and so on. There is a clear distinction between these things and what people are celebrating.

Speak for yourself, Travis. Some of your fellow Americans are celebrating precisely some of the things you list here. The distinction is not anywhere near as clear as you seem to think it is.

[Travis B.]

When Americans celebrate the Fourth, we overlook the many very ugly parts of America's past, ranging from the ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation/genocide of the native population, to slavery, to Jim Crow, to eugenics, to the Japanese Internment, to the often violent oppression of labor activism in the past, to both Red Scares, to American imperialism, to the continued oppression of PoC's, and so on. There is a clear distinction between these things and what people are celebrating.

Speak for yourself, Travis. Some of your fellow Americans are celebrating precisely some of the things you list here. The distinction is not anywhere near as clear as you seem to think it is.

By "overlook" I meant turn a blind eye to such things. Americans have a rather selective memory when it comes to the past; while they will acknowledge bad things happened at times, to them they are largely treated as if they were in isolation. For instance, take American independence, which we will be celebrating in two days - Americans tend to ignore that major motivating factors were the fear that the British would end slavery and bitterness about not being allowed to expand west to take even more of the Native Americans' land, and prefer to focus on more innocuous things like taxes on tea and other goods and colonists not getting seats in Parliament. Similarly, I remember the recent attention given to the Tulsa massacre this year, yet that only treats the Tulsa massacre as if it were an isolated incident, not part of an extended pattern of extrajudicial violence against black people here in the US that spanned decades.

[Vijay]

There are two Indian American kids on Discord who are really enthusiastic about learning Malayalam, and one of them is coming to Austin regularly starting this weekend (if he hadn't already started before)! It would be great to meet him, and I just might even be able to get my dad to let me, plus I got my shots a long time ago. That being said, there's still a pandemic, I've already heard of people dying of COVID after getting both their shots even before I got my first one, and I haven't driven anywhere in probably at least two years now (which will be a problem if my dad driving me over is awkward or he doesn't want to do it).

[Travis B.]

There are two Indian American kids on Discord who are really enthusiastic about learning Malayalam, and one of them is coming to Austin regularly starting this weekend (if he hadn't already started before)! It would be great to meet him, and I just might even be able to get my dad to let me, plus I got my shots a long time ago. That being said, there's still a pandemic, I've already heard of people dying of COVID after getting both their shots even before I got my first one, and I haven't driven anywhere in probably at least two years now (which will be a problem if my dad driving me over is awkward or he doesn't want to do it).

The numbers of people dying of COVID after getting both shots is orders of magnitude lower than the number of unvaccinated people dying of COVID. You probably have a higher risk of dying in a car wreck on the way there.

[Gryphonic]

Contradictory Feelings: I keep coming back to this forum and writing replies to threads, but then changing my mind and erasing the drafts. I am very happy to know a community exists for this hobby, and I hope it will encourage me to learn from you and improve my own projects. Self-doubt and perfectionism tell me nothing I have at the moment is worth sharing, and for most of my waking hours I am too stressed about work to have any creative drive.

For my life in general, I need very much to find a different occupation. I have put up with an unpleasant situation for a year and a half to prove to future employers that I am capable of more than the previous entry-level positions I have held. But I'm still nearly paralyzed with anxiety at the step of submitting a resume to strangers.

And yes, I am aware that these are related issues.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

Perhaps try posting a bit more to build your confidence, but only if you can.