Weird sound changes
-
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
- Location: Poland
Weird sound changes
Do you guys know examples of sounds changing into something not close phonemically in a single step?
Like, it is common to see [s] change to [z] or [h] or [ʃ] but can it change into something much further with even a slight probability like [n]?
Like, it is common to see [s] change to [z] or [h] or [ʃ] but can it change into something much further with even a slight probability like [n]?
Re: Weird sound changes
A change from [s] to [n] is only really likely to happen by assimilation, such as something like [ns] -> [nn]. Otherwise, every sound change ultimately proceeds in small steps.
Self-referential signatures are for people too boring to come up with more interesting alternatives.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2930
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Weird sound changes
Let's see:Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:41 pm Like, it is common to see [s] change to [z] or [h] or [ʃ] but can it change into something much further with even a slight probability like [n]?
s > r - attested in Latin
r > l - attested in Caribbean Spanish
l > n - attested in Cantonese
As alice says, sound changes are usually small steps. But you have to take timelines into account. If you have 3000 years to play with and no real attestations in between, than s > n could happen in what looks like a single step but isn't (because the intermediate stages are unknown).
- linguistcat
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm
- Location: Utah, USA
Re: Weird sound changes
I wonder if any speech games (like people using UWU talk online for fun, only irl) has ever caused any weird sound changes that stuck around for more than a generation. I think those could cause some interesting sound changes, but I also don't know how plausible it would be.
A cat and a linguist.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2930
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Weird sound changes
This is commonly assumed; is there evidence for it? (I'm not doubting it; I just wonder how certain it is.)
But that's the point of the rest of my post: the number of steps depends on how closely you zoom in.
- KathTheDragon
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
- Location: Disunited Kingdom
Re: Weird sound changes
It only happened intervocalically, so s > z seems pretty likely.zompist wrote: ↑Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:51 amThis is commonly assumed; is there evidence for it? (I'm not doubting it; I just wonder how certain it is.)
QuiteBut that's the point of the rest of my post: the number of steps depends on how closely you zoom in.
Re: Weird sound changes
I can't recall any sources or languages, but there were those two random sound changes in two different oceanic languages, without any apparent motivation or intermediate steps:
1. b > c / #_, nc / V_V
2. gr > kʰ
1. b > c / #_, nc / V_V
2. gr > kʰ
/j/ <j>
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Re: Weird sound changes
Apparently *s > n is attested in Arapaho, but I don't know any theories about what the intermediate steps, if any, were. Plains Algonquian languages in general have a ton of really bizarre sound changes.
-
- Posts: 1647
- Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am
Re: Weird sound changes
https://www.academia.edu/2107195/The_so ... in_Arapaho
1 is Sundanese. I'm not sure what 2 is but there's Drehet *dr > kʰ, Levei *dr > c; also *dr > c in some other languages like Likum and Nauna, and *dr > k~x in Seimat. Maybe an intermediate *tɹ̝̥ˠ as in English tr-? Or just *tʂ. The devoicing is weird but maybe it was +spirant.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Re: Weird sound changes
My random uneducated guess here would be ɡr > ɡʁ > ɡχ > kχ > kʰ.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Weird sound changes
Of course the above implies kr > kʰ as well.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Weird sound changes
dr > dʐ > dʒ > tʃ > tɕ > c does not seem strange to me.
Hell, I devoice /dr/ even where I wouldn't devoice /d/...
Hell, I devoice /dr/ even where I wouldn't devoice /d/...
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Weird sound changes
This is beginning to resemble one of those word puzzles where you have to get from PHONEME to CONLANG by changing one letter at a time or something.
Self-referential signatures are for people too boring to come up with more interesting alternatives.
Re: Weird sound changes
When one breaks things down into a sequence of steps, though, these sorts of things start to seem more plausible. For instance this could very well have been simply kð > kɬ > tɬ > ɬ > l or kð > ɡɮ > dɮ > ɮ > l or like.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Weird sound changes
Huh? Sundanese isn't Oceanic.
-
- Posts: 1647
- Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am
Re: Weird sound changes
*dr was a unit *ⁿdʳ, the prenasalized equivalent of /r/.
Sundanese isn't Oceanic, but it's the language mentioned as having that exact sound change in Blust's famous paper on weird sound changes in Austronesian.Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 pmHuh? Sundanese isn't Oceanic.
(Some of that paper is overstated - Rennellese *l > ⁿg has to be seen in the context of extensive Melanesian influence in the language, so probably we have something like *l > *gʟ followed by contact-induced loss of the lateral component and introduction of prenasalization.)
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
Re: Weird sound changes
But the point is that this is a recent change and none of those intermediate steps are attested. (*kɬ in particular seems unlikely given that there is a corresponding change of /khð/ to [hl̥] ~ [l].)
Re: Weird sound changes
Guess I should have just googled. Interesting, the intermediate steps seem well motivated given the other shifts in the language. Thanks!
The fact that Arapaho has the sound change *p > k / tʃ before front vowels reminds me of a similar well-known "weird" shift: that of *p p' m m' > tʃ tʃ’ ŋ ŋ' in Straits Salish. Unlike Arapaho, this shift occurs in all environments. Its phonological implausibility leads some to suggest an intermediate shift of *p p' > *k k'. As far as I know, the only direct evidence of this is the suffix for "ground": Klallam -nukʷ, -ənəkʷ, Saanich -ənəkʷ, which come from Proto-Salish *-nup. In this case the intermediate velar has been preserved due to irregular labialization after *u.