United States Politics Thread 46

[Travis B.]

........Since the entire history of this country?

I'm talking about within our lifetimes. Lynching and like are long gone here in America. The Tulsa massacre occurred before most people alive today were born.

[Vijay]

........Since the entire history of this country?

I'm talking about within our lifetimes. Lynching and like are long gone here in America. The Tulsa massacre occurred before most people alive today were born.

Throughout our lifetimes.

[Travis B.]

Throughout our lifetimes.

Extrajudicial killings of minorities by police have definitely been occurring throughout our lifetimes. Extrajudicial killings of minorities by non-police are another story; the main one that sticks out in my head is the killing of Trayvon Martin - there was another example I remembered hearing about much more recently, but I can't recall the details aside from that a group of men killed a minority - all in all, though, the numbers are far fewer than the extrajudicial killings of minorities by police.

[Vijay]

Seriously? You can only remember two times that a POC was killed by someone other than the cops?

Wow.

[Travis B.]

Seriously? You can only remember two times that a POC was killed by someone other than the cops?

Wow.

Other times have certainly occurred, but they have far outstripped by police killings that it is easy to forget them. (Now that I recall, there was the El Paso mass shooting, which definitely was targeting Hispanics and which was committed by a white supremacist, and the Atlanta spa shootings, which targeted Asians, but my mind must have shoved those off in the perennial "mass shootings" category, as mass shootings occur so frequently these days that it is easy to forget them.)

[Vijay]

See? This is the problem with "but this had more victims than that!" Any racially motivated murder is still a racially motivated murder.

Several Indians have been murdered in recent years. I actually can't think of one who was murdered by the police.

[Travis B.]

See? This is the problem with "but this had more victims than that!" Any racially motivated murder is still a racially motivated murder.

Several Indians have been murdered in recent years. I actually can't think of one who was murdered by the police.

And in recent past years there have been a number of mass killings of Jews here in the US, and not by police either. But even then it doesn't compare to the constant drumbeat of POC's, primarily black men, being murdered by police. There definitely are racially-motivated mass shootings, but most mass shootings are not particularly racially motivated (unlike the El Paso, Atlanta, and Tree of Life mass shootings, which were), whereas police killings of POC's are hard to see as not somehow racially-motivated (because otherwise why would POC's be far more likely to be killed by police than white people).

[bradrn]

mass shootings occur so frequently these days that it is easy to forget them

I’m not sure you realise how horrifically dystopic this sentence reads for someone outside the US.

See? This is the problem with "but this had more victims than that!" Any racially motivated murder is still a racially motivated murder.

There is still a very big difference between mass shootings and murders by police. Though the end result is the same (POC murdered), there are significant differences — which are only obscured by lumping them together — in what sort of people commit these acts, and what the best way is to stop them. Mass shootings are, by and large, perpetrated by lone actors, often mentally ill, who have somehow got hold of a gun; the simplest way of stopping them is by, well, just not letting those people legally near a gun. (This has worked wonders in Australia: mass shootings of POC are unknown here, and most murders are between criminal gangs.) On the other hand, police should in an ideal world be chosen based on their strength of character and responsibility with weapons. If even those people are regularly murdering people, then the problem must be systemic within the police force, and any solution should be chosen accordingly.

[Travis B.]

mass shootings occur so frequently these days that it is easy to forget them

I’m not sure you realise how horrifically dystopic this sentence reads for someone outside the US.

Oh, I realize full well how it reads.

See? This is the problem with "but this had more victims than that!" Any racially motivated murder is still a racially motivated murder.

There is still a very big difference between mass shootings and murders by police. Though the end result is the same (POC murdered), there are significant differences — which are only obscured by lumping them together — in what sort of people commit these acts, and what the best way is to stop them. Mass shootings are, by and large, perpetrated by lone actors, often mentally ill, who have somehow got hold of a gun; the simplest way of stopping them is by, well, just not letting those people legally near a gun. (This has worked wonders in Australia: mass shootings of POC are unknown here, and most murders are between criminal gangs.) On the other hand, police should in an ideal world be chosen based on their strength of character and responsibility with weapons. If even those people are regularly murdering people, then the problem must be systemic within the police force, and any solution should be chosen accordingly.

Precisely. The difference between a murder by a police officer and a murder by a lone white supremacist is that a police officer is entrusted with the authority of the law, who should be expected to hold to higher standards as a result (which they clearly do not since they are regularly going out and committing extrajudicial killings), whereas a lone white supremacist is just another unhinged extremist, whose actions are to be expected for when extremists get a hold of guns. One reflects a fundamental corruption in the state, especially since said state very often strongly defends said police officers when they carry out extrajudicial killings, whereas one is just extremists with guns doing what extremists with guns will do.

[Vijay]

I'm sorry, but you're both missing the point.

In this country, lots of people look at me, a brown-skinned man with facial hair, and immediately see a terrorist. Sometimes, people seeing someone like me have actually shot and killed them as a result. A Chump-supporter has already killed an Indian while citing Chump as his justification for doing so, as well as injured another Indian and a white man in the process. Chump is still very popular in this country where I live with a large portion of my extended family. If nothing is done about this, all of us could easily be murdered.

But apparently, it doesn't matter unless it's the cops doing the murdering. You should totally sit around fretting about liberals supposedly going too far instead of thinking of all the people who risk being, or already are, targeted solely due to their ethnicity.

What good is it, Travis? What are you doing to prevent my little nieces from being killed?

[bradrn]

I'm sorry, but you're both missing the point.

In this country, lots of people look at me, a brown-skinned man with facial hair, and immediately see a terrorist. Sometimes, people seeing someone like me have actually shot and killed them as a result. A Chump-supporter has already killed an Indian while citing Chump as his justification for doing so, as well as injured another Indian and a white man in the process. Chump is still very popular in this country where I live with a large portion of my extended family. If nothing is done about this, all of us could easily be murdered.

But apparently, it doesn't matter unless it's the cops doing the murdering. You should totally sit around fretting about liberals supposedly going too far instead of thinking of all the people who risk being, or already are, targeted solely due to their ethnicity.

What good is it, Travis? What are you doing to prevent my little nieces from being killed?

What? When did I ever say this? I’m shocked you would think of me as thinking this way.

My point is that some rando murdering a brown-skinned person is an easy problem to deal with, and it’s only the general stupidity of some prominent right-wing Americans which keeps it going on. It doesn’t happen in Australia, because we actually have gun control. This problem shouldn’t be treated the same way as police murders, which are a totally different problem requiring a totally different solution. I am not saying either problem is irrelevant; on the contrary, both are amongst the most relevant problems there are. It’s just that lumping them together as ‘POC being killed’ means that neither gets an appropriate solution.

[Vijay]

What? When did I ever say this? I’m shocked you would think of me as thinking this way.

Not you. Travis.

[bradrn]

What? When did I ever say this? I’m shocked you would think of me as thinking this way.

Not you. Travis.

Thank you for the clarification. Your first line did refer to ‘both’ of us, which I interpreted as me and Travis; sorry if I misinterpreted you.

[Vijay]

What? When did I ever say this? I’m shocked you would think of me as thinking this way.

Not you. Travis.

Thank you for the clarification. Your first line did refer to ‘both of us’, which I interpreted as me and Travis; sorry if I misinterpreted you.

Yes. I wasn't sure how to clarify, sorry. I don't think you initially understood what my point was. I'm pretty sure Travis did not, and I'm rather furious at him for prioritizing right-wing propaganda over the lives of innocent people.

[Travis B.]

I'm sorry, but you're both missing the point.

In this country, lots of people look at me, a brown-skinned man with facial hair, and immediately see a terrorist. Sometimes, people seeing someone like me have actually shot and killed them as a result. A Chump-supporter has already killed an Indian while citing Chump as his justification for doing so, as well as injured another Indian and a white man in the process. Chump is still very popular in this country where I live with a large portion of my extended family. If nothing is done about this, all of us could easily be murdered.

But apparently, it doesn't matter unless it's the cops doing the murdering. You should totally sit around fretting about liberals supposedly going too far instead of thinking of all the people who risk being, or already are, targeted solely due to their ethnicity.

What good is it, Travis? What are you doing to prevent my little nieces from being killed?

It comes down to statistics. (I don't assume you have these. I don't have them either.) How likely is it that an Indian will be targeted for their race/ethnicity? One can always point at individual cases, but in the end what matters is how likely it is. By your logic Jews should be fleeing the US because of the Tree of Life attack and the attacks by Black Israelites. Yet, I can be pretty sure that Jews are targeted less because of their ethniciity/religion in the US than in many places even with those cases in mind.

[Vijay]

It comes down to statistics.

Statistics don't matter once you're dead and are not that relevant for predicting what will happen in the future anyway.

How likely is it that an Indian will be targeted for their race/ethnicity? One can always point at individual cases, but in the end what matters is how likely it is.

It is increasingly likely.

By your logic Jews should be fleeing the US because of the Tree of Life attack and the attacks by Black Israelites. Yet, I can be pretty sure that Jews are targeted less because of their ethniciity/religion in the US than in many places even with those cases in mind.

I think we both know at least one Jew who does not necessarily feel safe in the US and who is absolutely considering leaving the US at least in part for that reason (I don't know whether it's because of these specific attacks or not).

[Travis B.]

I agree with the bradrn that the solution to murders by lone white supremacists is real gun control, enforced strictly, like in Australia. Extremists are far less dangerous when they are separated from their guns. Likewise I agree with bradrn that the solution to police murders is a whole different matter, requiring major policing reforms.

[Vijay]

You're still missing the point:

Lots of people in this country are racist.
Too many of them are murdering innocent people for being from the wrong race.
The problem isn't liberals.
The problem is racism.

Stop whining so much about liberals. Maybe whine some more about racism. That would be a start.

[bradrn]

It comes down to statistics. (I don't assume you have these. I don't have them either.) How likely is it that an Indian will be targeted for their race/ethnicity? One can always point at individual cases, but in the end what matters is how likely it is. By your logic Jews should be fleeing the US because of the Tree of Life attack and the attacks by Black Israelites. Yet, I can be pretty sure that Jews are targeted less because of their ethniciity/religion in the US than in many places even with those cases in mind.

Do the statistics matter? It’s big enough that average members of the community feel threatened (assuming Vijay is representative, and I see no reason to assume he isn’t). That makes it a problem to solve. The only reason statistics might be useful is to prioritise which issues need solving first.

I think we both know at least one Jew who does not necessarily feel safe in the US and who is absolutely considering leaving the US at least in part for that reason (I don't know whether it's because of these specific attacks or not).

I’m Jewish, and I don’t know any.

[Travis B.]

One thing to consider is that since COVID started there has been a long string of attacks on Asians of all ethnicities here in the US (from all appearances they far outstrip the attacks on Jews in frequency), yet I have not heard of Asians considering fleeing the US as a result.