United States Politics Thread 46

[Vijay]

One thing to consider is that since COVID started there has been a long string of attacks on Asians of all ethnicities here in the US (from all appearances they far outstrip the attacks on Jews in frequency), yet I have not heard of Asians considering fleeing the US as a result.

Well, you have heard of one now!

[bradrn]

You're still missing the point:

Lots of people in this country are racist.
Too many of them are murdering innocent people for being from the wrong race.
The problem isn't liberals.
The problem is racism.

Stop whining so much about liberals. Maybe whine some more about racism. That would be a start.

Let me make a controversial statement: there is very little one can do about racism, at least in the short term. Haters gonna hate, and it will need a full-scale shift in societal mores to do anything about it. Which, you know, would be lovely — racism is a horrific ideology, and deserves elimination — but a plan where the first step is ‘eliminate racism’ is guaranteed to fail. This is why I focus so much on gun control: it’s easy, it’s effective, it solves the problem, and it doesn’t require a societal evolution to work.

(This is also what makes police killings such a very difficult problem to solve: really there is no solution other than ‘eliminate racism in the police force’, which is at least easier than eliminating it in general society, but is still really difficult to achieve.)

[Vijay]

Let me make a controversial statement: there is very little one can do about racism, at least in the short term.

That's true.
But at least focusing on that rather than on the supposed failures of liberals would be a start.

[Travis B.]

You're still missing the point:

Lots of people in this country are racist.
Too many of them are murdering innocent people for being from the wrong race.
The problem isn't liberals.
The problem is racism.

Stop whining so much about liberals. Maybe whine some more about racism. That would be a start.

I whine about liberals because I expect them to be better, whereas I don't whine quite as much about the right because the right is not going to care what I think and I do not expect to convince them of a thing. Also, engaging the right gives them legitimacy, and the best thing to do with the right is to push the Overton window to the left. What is needed is to engage the center, and pull them to the left, because one can reason with them and thus one can convince them to move leftwards - but if the left is engaging in behavior that will alienate people, that won't happen. And this is why I have a big problem with things such as "white fragility" and "appropriation" and "canceling" - these are things that the right latches onto, and uses to discredit the left, resulting in the Overton window moving rightwards.

[Vijay]

Because the right totally cares what you have to say anyway.

[bradrn]

I whine about liberals because I expect them to be better, whereas I don't whine quite as much about the right because the right is not going to care what I think and I do not expect to convince them of a thing. Also, engaging the right gives them legitimacy, and the best thing to do with the right is to push the Overton window to the left. What is needed is to engage the center, and pull them to the left, because one can reason with them and thus one can convince them to move leftwards - but if the left is engaging in behavior that will alienate people, that won't happen. And this is why I have a big problem with things such as "white fragility" and "appropriation" and "canceling" - these are things that the right latches onto, and uses to discredit the left, resulting in the Overton window moving rightwards.

Completely agreed. The best thing the left can do is attract the centre towards them. This is probably the most effective method there is if you really do want to eliminate racism.

[Vijay]

They have already been trying. At this point, there basically is no "center."

[Travis B.]

Let me make a controversial statement: there is very little one can do about racism, at least in the short term.

That's true.
But at least focusing on that rather than on the supposed failures of liberals would be a start.

One can complain all one wants about racism itself, but it isn't going to convince a single racist to be less racist. What one can do is legitimize the left and conversely delegitimize the right. It is not going to change a single racist, but it will make their views seem more beyond-the-pale to the center-right and center.

[Vijay]

Let me make a controversial statement: there is very little one can do about racism, at least in the short term.

That's true.
But at least focusing on that rather than on the supposed failures of liberals would be a start.

One can complain all one wants about racism itself, but it isn't going to convince a single racist to be less racist.

That's not true. Racists have been convinced to forsake their ideologies several times.

[bradrn]

That's true.
But at least focusing on that rather than on the supposed failures of liberals would be a start.

One can complain all one wants about racism itself, but it isn't going to convince a single racist to be less racist.

That's not true. Racists have been convinced to forsake their ideologies several times.

As I said, any plan which starts with ‘first, we convince all the racists’ is doomed to failure. Convincing racists is certainly possible, but it takes a lot of work and you can’t bet on it succeeding, so from a pragmatic point of view it’s useful to start by assuming racists won’t change and working from there.

[Vijay]

As I said, any plan which starts with ‘first, we convince all the racists’ is doomed to failure.

That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is more and more people are dying on the street. Arguing about liberals while this is happening does nothing to keep those who remain alive safe. Arguing about racism with people who are not giving a shit about it does at least something.

[bradrn]

As I said, any plan which starts with ‘first, we convince all the racists’ is doomed to failure.

That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is more and more people are dying on the street. Arguing about liberals while this is happening does nothing to keep those who remain alive safe. Arguing about racism with people who are not giving a shit about it does at least something.

My point of view boils down quite simply to: find the single most effective solution, then do that. Arguing with racists about racism is certainly one way to go about things. But so is arguing about liberals. So is arguing about gun control. Which is most effective? This seems to be our main point of disagreement. You think arguing about racism is best; Travis thinks arguing about liberalism is. I think neither works especially well, and we’re better off finding practical solutions and policies (as I say, I think gun control is a good one) rather than worrying about beliefs and ideology.

[Vijay]

Arguing about liberals is completely ignoring the issue.

[Travis B.]

As I said, any plan which starts with ‘first, we convince all the racists’ is doomed to failure.

That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is more and more people are dying on the street. Arguing about liberals while this is happening does nothing to keep those who remain alive safe. Arguing about racism with people who are not giving a shit about it does at least something.

Moving the Overton window to the left will result in the racists becoming more and more isolated and delegitimized even amongst their fellow travelers, which will have an effect on them. Conversely, simply arguing with racists is essentially arguing with a brick wall - the most it will do is make you feel good about that you "did something" while accomplishing little to nothing. (Note that when it comes to counterdemonstrations against racists, vastly outnumbering them does have the effect of making them look to others like they are small and insignificant.)

[Vijay]

Again with all your armchair philosophy about the Overton window while people are dying in the streets

[bradrn]

Again with all your armchair philosophy about the Overton window while people are dying in the streets

I think the argument is: Overton window moving left ⇒ racism becomes discredited ⇒ less racism ⇒ less people dying in the streets. Travis seems to think that this is a more effective way of making society less racist than directly arguing with racists. Personally, I’m not sure which would be most effective.

[Travis B.]

My point of view boils down quite simply to: find the single most effective solution, then do that. Arguing with racists about racism is certainly one way to go about things. But so is arguing about liberals. So is arguing about gun control. Which is most effective? This seems to be our main point of disagreement. You think arguing about racism is best; Travis thinks arguing about liberalism is. I think neither works especially well, and we’re better off finding practical solutions and policies (as I say, I think gun control is a good one) rather than worrying about beliefs and ideology.

I agree that gun control would be a good solution, but unfortunately the American right has guns so deeply entrenched that even if it could be possible politically, the right would have their caches of guns which would have to be forcibly seized on a massive scale.

I don't think that arguing about liberalism is a solution to racism. Rather, it is dealing with elements of the left which are feeding propaganda to the right that they then use to discredit the left. The right does not need to make up things about the left for them to attempt discredit it, the left provides it for them free of charge. The left's internal culture wars have only helped the right.

[Vijay]

Again with all your armchair philosophy about the Overton window while people are dying in the streets

I think the argument is: Overton window moving left ⇒ racism becomes discredited ⇒ less racism ⇒ less people dying in the streets. Travis seems to think that this is a more effective way of making society less racist than directly arguing with racists. Personally, I’m not sure which would be most effective.

............

We don't have time to completely discredit racism and people have long been trying to do this. It doesn't work like that.
But! Pointing out racism and not just quietly letting it happen does.

[bradrn]

At the risk of stating the obvious, may I point out that it is possible to both point out racism and argue with liberals? They’re not mutually exclusive. And indeed both at once is probably more effective than doing either on its own.

[Vijay]

I don't think that arguing about liberalism is a solution to racism.

THEN FOR FUCK'S SAKE, DO SOMETHING ABOUT RACISM SO MY BLOOD ISN'T ON YOUR HANDS!!!