Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Richard W]

Consider the pronouns in the previous post but one:

it => a pronoun
I => Rounin Ryuuji
it => "my one" (well, certainly a noun phrase slot)
me => Rounin Ryuuji
you => (OK, indefinite, not really "Richard W")
it => 'Do'
them => phrases like "the brave", "the dispossessed", "the bookish"
something =>
somebody =>

The referents are a noun phrase or the pronouns are indefinite pronouns. Pronouns (other than 'one', if it be a pronoun) do not pick out just a noun; they refer to an entire noun phrase.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I think I misunderstood you as saying that they took the place of only noun phrases, and not individual nouns; either way, "my one" sounds awfully grammatically dodgy to me; I understand what's being said now, however — that pronouns function as complete noun phrases in English, not that they only replace noun phrases, to the exclusion of single nouns.

[Richard W]

No, you understood me, though I should have limited myself to pronouns that are anaphoras.

"My one" struck me as odd when I first heard it, but since then I've heard it quite a bit. In the plural it can even feel better than "mine", as in:

Now that I've got an Iranian visa to accompany my ones from Vietnam, China and Syria, I'll get an even more interesting reception.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

That still sounds weird to me. I would cast that as, "Now that I have an Iranian visa to accompany the ones I got from Vietnam, China, and Syria, I'll get an even more interesting reception."

[Otto Kretschmer]

Someone siad that object pronouns are being used as subject pronouns in French. Is it truly the case?

[Ares Land]

Not really.

French has bound forms of the personal pronouns pronouns, subject: je, tu, ils, elles, nous, vous, ils, elles, oblique: me, te, le/l', la/l', nous, vous, les + dative lui, leur

These are really bound morphemes; they're always found as part of a verb complex in a fixed slot.

je le vois
tu me cherches
je te l'ai donné

Then there are independant personal pronouns: moi, toi, lui, elle, nous vous, eux, elles
They're used as subject pronouns in quite a few constructions, for instance:

Moi, je suis pas d'accord. ('I disagree.')
Qui a fait ça ? Toi ('Who did that? You did.')
C'est lui qui a écrit ça. ('He wrote that.')

But they're really just unmarked for case: they can be used as objects, datives, with propositions: c'est à lui qu'il faut le donner ('you have to give it to him'), je suis en face de toi ('I'm in front of you'), Toi, je te parle pas ('I'm not speaking to you').

Etymologically, they do derive from Latin accusatives or datives. Lat. mē (accusative) > Fr. moi (if stressed), me (when unstressed) -- by contrast, Spanish or Italian retain a nominative: Moi, je suis... Io sono... Yo soy...

[Nachtswalbe]

Why aren’t there Latinizations of Islamic terms if “caliph” (Khalif) is latinized. E.g <ictihadus> for “ijtihad” or <fichus> for “fiqh”

[keenir]

Why aren’t there Latinizations of Islamic terms if “caliph” (Khalif) is latinized. E.g <ictihadus> for “ijtihad” or <fichus> for “fiqh”

My hunch is its because Islamic terms usually pass through French or English

ie, Osman (Turkish) -> Othman (Arabic) -> Ottoman (English

...and sometimes through Spanish/Catalonian/Aragonian/Portugese on the Iberian penninsula.

[Moose-tache]

There are plenty of Latinized Arabic words in the sciences: algebra, zenith, algorithm, lots of star names...

[zompist]

Why aren’t there Latinizations of Islamic terms if “caliph” (Khalif) is latinized. E.g <ictihadus> for “ijtihad” or <fichus> for “fiqh”

Presumably because medieval Europe had no interest in Islamic jurisprudence.

[Raholeun]

Dixon writes in Basic Linguistic Theory Vol. 2 (p. 191):

All languages have a distinction of number in either free or bound pronouns (or both).

I find this statement hard to believe. Are there any counterexamples that you can think of?

[bradrn]

What’s hard to believe? All he’s saying is that they have some strategy to mark a difference between me and you. (It doesn’t even require a third person pronoun!)

EDIT: Whoops, misread ‘person’ for ‘number’. (I really shouldn’t be posting this late at night…) Yes, this statement does indeed seem hard to believe, and I’m pretty sure I’ve even seen a counterexample. (Some Papuan language, I think. Possibly from TNG?) Dixon has a habit of stating these broad generalisations, some of which turn out to be false; I’ve learnt to take them with a grain of salt.

[Moose-tache]

"Some Papuan language" is the linguistic equivalent of Sasquatch.

[Nortaneous]

Dixon writes in Basic Linguistic Theory Vol. 2 (p. 191):

All languages have a distinction of number in either free or bound pronouns (or both).

I find this statement hard to believe. Are there any counterexamples that you can think of?

Piraha?

[keenir]

Dixon writes in Basic Linguistic Theory Vol. 2 (p. 191):

All languages have a distinction of number in either free or bound pronouns (or both).

I find this statement hard to believe. Are there any counterexamples that you can think of?

Piraha?

If "some Papuan language" is Sasquatch, does that make Piraha Mothman?

[bradrn]

Well, I can’t seem to find the language I was thinking of. However, there is another Papuan language, namely Imonda, which has four pronouns, all of which are indifferent to number: 1 ka / 2 ne / 3 ehe / inclusive pël.

[Richard W]

Well, I can’t seem to find the language I was thinking of. However, there is another Papuan language, namely Imonda, which has four pronouns, all of which are indifferent to number: 1 ka / 2 ne / 3 ehe / inclusive pël.

But can't the number marking on the vowel be counted as number marking on the bound pronoun? And isn't the inclusive form an example of number marking?

[bradrn]

Well, I can’t seem to find the language I was thinking of. However, there is another Papuan language, namely Imonda, which has four pronouns, all of which are indifferent to number: 1 ka / 2 ne / 3 ehe / inclusive pël.

But can't the number marking on the vowel be counted as number marking on the bound pronoun? And isn't the inclusive form an example of number marking?

Number marking on the vowel? What number marking on the vowel? As for the inclusive pronoun, I’m not even sure what it means, let alone whether it can be taken as any sort of plurality — the grammar is really quite terrible.

[Raphael]

Is there an etymological connection between the middle syllable of the word "broccoli" and the German word "Kohl", meaning cabbage? Or is that a chance resemblance?

[Rounin Ryuuji]

It's apparently a coincidence, though the the German word (and English cole, kale) all seem to be early borrowings from Latin.

Edit: The cole/kale/Kohl element is connected with the cauli- in cauliflower, cf. Latin caulis "stem, cabbage stalk".