I really just wanted to say "Great Bowel Shift" but thanks anyway.Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:01 pm Certain components of it are common, like breaking of long front vowels. But none of the languages takes it to the same extent.
Linguistic Miscellany Thread
-
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
- Location: Poland
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Many many years ago, I read(?) that there was a language - possibly African - in which the speaker can say things like "I say X" and "I do Y" and "I think Z" as well as "You say X" and "You do Y"...but cannot say "You think Z" because the speaker only knows for certain that he himself can think. (one would think this would be blown out of the water as soon as anyone held a conversation - but then again, people can lie) *shrugs*
Is this/was this a linguistics urban myth?
Is this/was this a linguistics urban myth?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
If you put them in the past tense, it could be French - it's quite widely spoken in Africa . The claim seems eminently plausible - see the Wikipedia article on grammatical evidentiality.keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:33 am Many many years ago, I read(?) that there was a language - possibly African - in which the speaker can say things like "I say X" and "I do Y" and "I think Z" as well as "You say X" and "You do Y"...but cannot say "You think Z" because the speaker only knows for certain that he himself can think. (one would think this would be blown out of the water as soon as anyone held a conversation - but then again, people can lie) *shrugs*
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:24 amIf you put them in the past tense, it could be French - it's quite widely spoken in Africa .keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:33 am Many many years ago, I read(?) that there was a language - possibly African - in which the speaker can say things like "I say X" and "I do Y" and "I think Z" as well as "You say X" and "You do Y"...but cannot say "You think Z" because the speaker only knows for certain that he himself can think. (one would think this would be blown out of the water as soon as anyone held a conversation - but then again, people can lie) *shrugs*
seriously, many thanks.
-
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
- Location: Poland
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Are there languages other than Wolof that have pronouns inflected for tense?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I don't know of any African languages that work this way, but I know two Asian languages which make similar distinctions: Korean and Tibetan. However, it's not true to say that you cannot say the equivalent of "he thinks". You can, but this requires using a different form of the verb than one uses with first-person subjects.keenir wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:33 am Many many years ago, I read(?) that there was a language - possibly African - in which the speaker can say things like "I say X" and "I do Y" and "I think Z" as well as "You say X" and "You do Y"...but cannot say "You think Z" because the speaker only knows for certain that he himself can think. (one would think this would be blown out of the water as soon as anyone held a conversation - but then again, people can lie) *shrugs*
Is this/was this a linguistics urban myth?
I can't remember the details for Tibetan, but in Korean the third-person construction can be diachronically analysed as "he does [as if] + infinitive". Compare:
나는 슬퍼요.
na nun sulphe.yo
I TOP sad.INF-TOP
"I am sad."
그는 슬퍼해요.
na nun sulphe.hay.yo
that TOP sad.INF-AUX.INF-POL
"He is sad."
The verb which I'm glossing as "AUX" here is 하다 /hata/, which historically meant "do". It's used not only in this construction but also indirect discourse and to provide an inflectable stem to verbs which lack them (generally foreign borrowings). For example, 피곤 /phikon/, a borrowing of Literary Chinese 疲困 píkùn "tired". But look what happens when we conjugate this derived verb:
나는 피곤해요.
na nun phikon.hay.yo
I TOP tired-AUX.INF-POL
"I am tired."
그는 피곤해해요.
na nun phikon.hay.hay.yo
that TOP tired-AUX.inf-AUX.inf-POL
The auxiliary appears twice, once to verbify 피곤 and then a second time in the second example to indicate a third-person subject.
Korean also has some volitional suffixes (e.g. -ㄹ게요 /-l.key.yo/) which can only be used with first-person subjects, e.g. 나는 갈께요. "I will go." These attach to all verbs, but the underlying logic is the same: You can't say for sure what anyone else intends to do, only what you think they're likely to do.
- linguistcat
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm
- Location: Utah, USA
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Something similar also happens in Japanese to some degree. You use different verbs for "I want" versus "You/He/She/etc (seem to) want" and also "I am happy/sad/etc" versus "You/He/She (seems) happy/sad/etc"
A cat and a linguist.
-
- Posts: 1746
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:12 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Heard in the wild from a native speaker: "That's what pisses me so off!"
I did it. I made the world's worst book review blog.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I seem to recall reading (possibly on the old ZBB) that case prefixes combined with a large case system are attested only around the Great Lakes region of Africa, particularly Lake Turkana. Can anyone else recall anything like this?
EDIT: The claim may actually have been about VSO word order combined with a large case system; I can’t quite remember. In any case, VSO and prefixes tend to go together, I think.
EDIT: The claim may actually have been about VSO word order combined with a large case system; I can’t quite remember. In any case, VSO and prefixes tend to go together, I think.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
- dɮ the phoneme
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:53 am
- Location: On either side of the tongue, below the alveolar ridge
- Contact:
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Does anyone have a sense of what the sociolinguistic situation of Malay/Indonesian is? There are two mutually-intelligible standard forms (Standard Malay and Standard Indonesian), plus various dialects whose exact level of diversity I am unsure of. And I know that most speakers of Indonesian are L2 speakers, but I'm not sure what the situation is for Malay. What's the general layout here?
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.
(formerly Max1461)
-
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:15 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I can only speak for the Indonesian side here. Standard Indonesian (SI) is similar enough to Standard Malay to allow Indonesians to read Malay texts (apart from a few false friends that cause a lot of laughter). The well-known children cartoon 'Upin dan ipin' which uses some kind of standardized colloquial Malay is subtitled on TV though. I personally think that differences in intonation cause a lot of confusion here.
Inside Indonesia, multilingualism is the norm. Most areas have their local languages which often are Austronesian but not closely related to Standard Indonesian (e.g. Javanese, Balinese, Sundanese, various Papuan languages). Additionally, Colloquial Jakarta Indonesian (CJI) has emerged as a colloquial standard that is used in many talkshows on national TV and on many national Youtube channels. CJI is not mutually intelligible with SI, e.g. CJI has personal pronouns loaned from Southern Chinese.
This is not enough. Many areas in Indonesia have their own variety of Indonesian (often derived from Bazar Malay). These varieties differ (at least) in pronouns and syntax from Standard Indonesian and are not mutually intelligible with Standard Indonesian, but some have a restricted mutual intelligibility with each other. They exist in a continuum from acrolectal to basilectal forms. Acrolectal forms are of course very close to Standard Indonesian.
Some immigrant/heritage communities have also kept their languages, e.g. Chinese and Arabic. Many Chinese Indonesians are switching from Southern Chinese varieties to Mandarin. Few elderly people still know Dutch. Schools teach English and some other languages like Javanese or German.
The newest development I heard of is 'bahasa jaksel' (jaksel < Jakarta selatan 'Southern Jakarta'), which is colloquial Jakarta Indonesian but with a lot of English and pseudo-English loans.
The only thing I heard about Malaysian Malay is that there is more ethnic nationalism involved. SI is often a uniting factor across ethnic groups in Indonesia, since the dominant ethnic group are the Javanese, which have their own language.
Inside Indonesia, multilingualism is the norm. Most areas have their local languages which often are Austronesian but not closely related to Standard Indonesian (e.g. Javanese, Balinese, Sundanese, various Papuan languages). Additionally, Colloquial Jakarta Indonesian (CJI) has emerged as a colloquial standard that is used in many talkshows on national TV and on many national Youtube channels. CJI is not mutually intelligible with SI, e.g. CJI has personal pronouns loaned from Southern Chinese.
This is not enough. Many areas in Indonesia have their own variety of Indonesian (often derived from Bazar Malay). These varieties differ (at least) in pronouns and syntax from Standard Indonesian and are not mutually intelligible with Standard Indonesian, but some have a restricted mutual intelligibility with each other. They exist in a continuum from acrolectal to basilectal forms. Acrolectal forms are of course very close to Standard Indonesian.
Some immigrant/heritage communities have also kept their languages, e.g. Chinese and Arabic. Many Chinese Indonesians are switching from Southern Chinese varieties to Mandarin. Few elderly people still know Dutch. Schools teach English and some other languages like Javanese or German.
The newest development I heard of is 'bahasa jaksel' (jaksel < Jakarta selatan 'Southern Jakarta'), which is colloquial Jakarta Indonesian but with a lot of English and pseudo-English loans.
The only thing I heard about Malaysian Malay is that there is more ethnic nationalism involved. SI is often a uniting factor across ethnic groups in Indonesia, since the dominant ethnic group are the Javanese, which have their own language.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I’m surprised to hear this. Do you have any audio samples? (Or at least, spectrographs.)Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:22 am I personally think that differences in intonation cause a lot of confusion here.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
-
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:15 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Yep, I can hear this too! They sound very different.Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:55 am Try listening to "upin&ipin" (e.g. here) vs. the Indonesian dub of Doraemon (e.g. here). I did not do any measurements, but impressionistically there is a stronger prasal stress and more utterance final rising in the former than the latter.
(Also, are the subtitles in ‘Upin & Ipin’ in Indonesian rather than Malay? They seem different to the audio, though as a non-speaker it’s hard for me to tell.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
-
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:15 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Yes, and there are some lexical differences between the audio and the subtitle, as you might have noticed.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
I notice there's a bit of an oddity with semantics in two seemingly-synonymous phrases:
"I had an unfair shot." implies the unfairness works for the speaker.
but
"I didn't have a fair shot." implies the unfairness works against the speaker.
Is there a term for this? Or at least, is there a term for this when it happens between words that i could rework to apply between sentences/ phrases? Or am i mistaken a tad?
"I had an unfair shot." implies the unfairness works for the speaker.
but
"I didn't have a fair shot." implies the unfairness works against the speaker.
Is there a term for this? Or at least, is there a term for this when it happens between words that i could rework to apply between sentences/ phrases? Or am i mistaken a tad?
They or she pronouns. I just know English, have made no conlangs (yet).
Current avatar: rainbow star item from Super Mario Brothers (Japanese game franchize).
Current avatar: rainbow star item from Super Mario Brothers (Japanese game franchize).
-
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
- Location: Poland
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Is the claim that Phone language has had the strongest impact on Haitian Creole (as a substrate) correct?
Second question - virtually all languages of East and Southeast Asia have limited syllabe inventory. This is true even for outliers like Japanese or Manchu
Is this such a strong and persistent areal feature? Chinese literary influence on Japanese started in the 600s and was reserved to a small (5-6%) percentage of literati, not larger than the number of people who knew Latin in Europe.
Second question - virtually all languages of East and Southeast Asia have limited syllabe inventory. This is true even for outliers like Japanese or Manchu
Is this such a strong and persistent areal feature? Chinese literary influence on Japanese started in the 600s and was reserved to a small (5-6%) percentage of literati, not larger than the number of people who knew Latin in Europe.
Last edited by Otto Kretschmer on Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:15 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Is this just about semantic scope of negation?Starbeam wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:21 am I notice there's a bit of an oddity with semantics in two seemingly-synonymous phrases:
"I had an unfair shot." implies the unfairness works for the speaker.
but
"I didn't have a fair shot." implies the unfairness works against the speaker.
Is there a term for this? Or at least, is there a term for this when it happens between words that i could rework to apply between sentences/ phrases? Or am i mistaken a tad?
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2944
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
That's a really interesting observation. I agree about the implications, but I'm not sure about the reason for them.Starbeam wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:21 am I notice there's a bit of an oddity with semantics in two seemingly-synonymous phrases:
"I had an unfair shot." implies the unfairness works for the speaker.
but
"I didn't have a fair shot." implies the unfairness works against the speaker.
Is there a term for this? Or at least, is there a term for this when it happens between words that i could rework to apply between sentences/ phrases? Or am i mistaken a tad?
One thing that may be relevant is Neg Hopping. English allows the negative to hop over to the left as far as possible (compare Mandarin which requires that it stick with the element negated). This interacts with scope, as Creyeditor suggests— it can be harder to figure out what an English speaker is actually negating. In this example, though, scope doesn't seem to be the issue, as what's being negated is the fairness.
However, there might be a pragmatic signal here. Not using Neg Hopping can give a sentence a narrow or pedantic feel— thus it's appropriate for a concession. ("The defendant recognizes that unwarranted language may have been used.") So maybe that's why the first sentence feels like a concession, while the second (with normal Neg Hopping) is more appropriate for a complaint.
-
- Posts: 1746
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:12 am
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Not sure this is true. For syllable structure, this map shows that most languages of the region are about average. It turns out, allowing any coda at all, even if it's just a nasal, puts you well above the bottom rung of the syllable structure ladder. And if we look at this and this map, we see that the total number of phonemes is not unusual in the region, either. By my count, if you include all the initial clusters, diphthongs, tones, etc., Thai has 59,400 syllables. Probably some of those are disallowed and certainly many of them are unattested. But that's hardly a limited syllable inventory.Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:33 pm virtually all languages of East and Southeast Asia have limited syllabe inventory. This is true even for outliers like Japanese or Manchu
I did it. I made the world's worst book review blog.