United States Politics Thread 46

[Moose-tache]

Heh, I spell that word wrong about half the time. I blame the word "illusion."

[Raphael]

Just in case anyone thought that old school WASP supremacism, as opposed to more generic white supremacism, wasn't a thing any more, a few days ago someone posted a thread on Twitter which seriously presented it as a bad thing that, and I quote literally, "Every member of Joe Biden's cabinet, the Democratic leadership in Congress, and liberal faction on the Supreme Court is Jewish, Italian, or Irish. Exceptions are Black or Latino." (He does point out later in the thread that Deb Haaland is indigenous, which seems to be no better by his standards.)

I guess that's the thanks white ethnics are getting from the Right for moving to the GOP in the second half of the 20th century. And I guess that on the Right these days, with everyone shouting completely out there stuff all the time, it must be difficult to set yourself apart as more than just Yet Another Random Right-Wing Dude...

Edit: For the record, I am NOT saying that one shitposting thread on Twitter somehow equals all the shit actual POCs have to put up with.

[Raphael]

Harry Reid has died.

[Travis B.]

Well... another attack on Jews - which thankfully ended with harm only coming to the hostage-taker - for no reason that makes sense aside from Jews being a scapegoat for anything certain kinds of people don't like. It did not even have anything to do with Israel/Palestine, as if that would justify anti-Semitism - the hostages were American Jews, and the person the hostage-taker wanted freed was Pakistani. In the end it seems like for those kinds of people Jews are somehow a seen as a legitimate target for whatever grievance they have no matter how loosely connected they are.

[alice]

Mike Lindell says he has 'enough evidence' to put '300 million' Americans in jail for election fraud. Be very afraid.

[Travis B.]

Mike Lindell says he has 'enough evidence' to put '300 million' Americans in jail for election fraud. Be very afraid.

Did he look up the US population or did he just pull that number out of a hat?

[Vardelm]

Did he look up the US population or did he just pull that number out of a hat?

Is "hat" a synonym for "ass"?

Moron. While he may not be individually dangerous, we have enough of these morons encouraging each other's moronic tendencies to be even bigger morons that it adds up to danger.

[Richard W]

well, clearly, the us 2020 elections had the same problems as the elections in burma - too many democrats on the electoral rolls.

[bradrn]

In the end it seems like for those kinds of people Jews are somehow a seen as a legitimate target for whatever grievance they have no matter how loosely connected they are.

Yes.

[Moose-tache]

I feel a strong sense of deja vu coming on with the US government's handling of tensions in Ukraine.

When will people learn that you can't frighten an autocrat into backing down? The more you push, the more they have to push back, for their own political survival. The front in Lugansk/Donbas has been fairly stable for seven years (by "fairly stable" I just mean the danger of tanks in Kiev and Ukraine being annexed is virtually zero, not that there is no danger of civilians in the eastern part of the country being killed in cross fire). If Putin feels some internal politicl need to build up troops in the area, let him. It only means war if you call his bluff.

The Koreans have mastered this sort of managed stand off. About every four years the DPRK has semi-standardized sabre rattling. The RoK carefully watches the situation, but otherwise doesn't let on that they give a shit. The average person in Seoul couldn't tell you if tensions are high or low this week, because nobody is yelling into the cameras "Try it, I dare you!" That's exactly how both government behaved in 48-50, and look how that turned out.

Now we have the prospect of letting Ukraine into NATO? What kind of moron thinks it's OK to induct a country currently skirmishing with Russian troops into an anti-Russian military alliance? Doctor Strange couldn't find a timeline where that doesn't lead to war (probably ending in the US abandoning its new ally anyway). Those of us old enough to remember when "bad president" meant mass murderer and not merely racist grandpa recall the idiocy of the build up to the war in Iraq. Nobody in the White House seemed to understand that Hussein did not have the option to back down, even though he could prove he didn't have the weapons he was accused of having. Once it becomes a dick-measuring contest with someone whose entire rule is predicated on having the largest dick, there is no mechanism left to prevent a war. It's the same for V. I. Putin.

Why does no one in Washington seem to get this? Do they not teach school anymore? Am I the only person who is both over the age of fifteen and also not suffering from dementia?

[zompist]

A pity you missed Salmoneus arguing a few years ago that the West should be willing to start a nuclear war over Ukraine, and that anyone arguing otherwise was a Russian stooge.

So far as I can see, the actual leaders of the West have been very carefully saying that a) Putin invading Ukraine would be very bad, and b) they are absolutely not going to get into a war over it. I'm not sure where you're getting "the prospect of letting Ukraine into NATO", unless you're referring to standard NATO policy for the last 14 years, a policy which has also, for the last 14 years, not actually let Ukraine into NATO.

[MacAnDàil]

Sure, such a war situation should be avoided. But repeating Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' when the war is already going on is no better. Putin's irrendentism is maybe the closest we currently have to Hitler's and he ought to be stopped. At least boycotted economically and culturally a lot more than currently.

Also, I remember Bush, and my own opposition to his policies. Invading other countries for democracy seems suddenly not so bad when Trump (not just racist grandpa) offers invading his own country for authoritarianism.

[Moose-tache]

Repeating Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' when the war is already going on is no better.

OK, I retract the part of my argument where I said we should give Putin the Sudetenland.

Oh, wait... I can't find that part of my post. Weird.

I actually thought last night "somebody is going to make a Chamberlain reference." Then I thought "No, that's stupid. Nobody on that forum is going to not see that the two situations have nothing to do with one another." My bad.

For anyone who needs a history lesson, at Munich Hitler was given parts of Czechoslovakia he did not previously possess, parts that he had no legal claim to, and which were essential to Czechoslovakia's defense. What I am recommending is that we not start an avoidable war over Russian posturing about a satellite separatist movement they already control and have done for seven years. The better historical parallel to what Biden is doing would be threatening to invade Germany over their annexation of the Saarland, several years after the referendum. Except even that doesn't fit because Russia has not annexed Lugansk or Donbas. If, say, the Sudetenland had seceded from CZ, and Hitler supported the separatist government in its standoff with Prague, and Chamberlain's position at Munich was to not actively push for British invasion of central Europe to repatriate Pilz, that would be similar to my position today.

My deja vu has now kicked into high gear, because having no idea what Chamberlain did at Munich is pretty much standard for people who want to start a war. I guess it's good to know that Democrats are just like Republicans, in that they decide whether a war is good or bad based on the color of the president's tie.

[zompist]

Let's see... Complains about people misreading her, check:

Oh, wait... I can't find that part of my post. Weird.

Then proceeds to misread people, check:

Democrats are just like Republicans, in that they decide whether a war is good or bad based on the color of the president's tie.

Conversation successfully aborted!

When you make shit up about politicians to get mad about, I guess that's just 2022; but really, stop making shit up about people here. It's not funny to pretend people are saying the opposite of what they're saying. And if you really think you are the only sane person in the world... put your analyst on danger money.

[alice]

If the Republicans regain the Presidency in 2024, would they be legally able to release from prison all those who were still serving time for their role in the Insurrection, and - if he were to end up there himself - Trump?

[MacAnDàil]

Repeating Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' when the war is already going on is no better.

OK, I retract the part of my argument where I said we should give Putin the Sudetenland.

Oh, wait... I can't find that part of my post. Weird.

I actually thought last night "somebody is going to make a Chamberlain reference." Then I thought "No, that's stupid. Nobody on that forum is going to not see that the two situations have nothing to do with one another." My bad.

For anyone who needs a history lesson, at Munich Hitler was given parts of Czechoslovakia he did not previously possess, parts that he had no legal claim to, and which were essential to Czechoslovakia's defense. What I am recommending is that we not start an avoidable war over Russian posturing about a satellite separatist movement they already control and have done for seven years. The better historical parallel to what Biden is doing would be threatening to invade Germany over their annexation of the Saarland, several years after the referendum. Except even that doesn't fit because Russia has not annexed Lugansk or Donbas. If, say, the Sudetenland had seceded from CZ, and Hitler supported the separatist government in its standoff with Prague, and Chamberlain's position at Munich was to not actively push for British invasion of central Europe to repatriate Pilz, that would be similar to my position today.

My deja vu has now kicked into high gear, because having no idea what Chamberlain did at Munich is pretty much standard for people who want to start a war. I guess it's good to know that Democrats are just like Republicans, in that they decide whether a war is good or bad based on the color of the president's tie.

I would like to at least clarify things. I did not try to suggest that you wanted to give Putin the Sudetenland or any parallel to that. My previous post was not intended to be about you or your post so much as about the same subject matter. Sure, the parallels between the Donbass and the Sudetenland - or any other annexation or conflict for that matter - are not exact; it's difficult for them to be. But the main parallel is "Let's not let authoritarian irredentists get their way." And my point - as someone who has never been to America and so neither Democrat nor Republican - was that 1° I oppose starting a war, as you do but that 2° Putin is trying to expand his operations, which are already too expansionary, and this should not go without consequences i.e. what Putin might be planning might be more than posturing and may go beyond South Ossetia, the Crimea, Lugansk and the Donbas. At the very least, stopping Nord Stream 2, a major issue now in my mother's country, Germany, as well as boycotting the Olympics and freezing the financial assets of Russians associated with the government (suggested by Thomas Piketty in Vivement le socialisme p. 194 outwith) would be a bit of a start.

[doctor shark]

If the Republicans regain the Presidency in 2024, would they be legally able to release from prison all those who were still serving time for their role in the Insurrection, and - if he were to end up there himself - Trump?

Generally, yes, as the power of the president to grant pardons, reprieves, and/or commutations for any federal offenses apart from impeachment has been long held to be absolute and unfettered. If any State offenses are involved, however, those would have to be handled by State (and not Federal) law.

Also remember that pardons are forgiveness and not forgetfulness: a pardon does not erase the event of conviction, but merely its effects (and it's been held that acceptance of a pardon carries with it acceptance of guilt).

[doctor shark]

Minor state-level fun: After every census, there's a redistricting of House of Representative boundaries, and because North Carolina's now entitled to an extra representative (14 total), the lines had to be redrawn.

Well... the maps that the (Republican) legislature drew* got struck down by the NC Supreme Court as a partisan gerrymander in violation of the NC Constitution and they've given the legislature a short time to rectify the issue. And we have three months to the primary, so who knows what's going to happen.

*Unusually, the NC governor didn't get the power to veto laws until 1996, but one of the things he/she cannot veto is redistricting legislation. In NC's case, both houses of the General Assembly are Republican-controlled, but the governor, Roy Cooper, is a Democrat.

[Moose-tache]

From Twitter, regarding the recent enthusiasm for censorship: "Tennessee is just closing the loop: authors turn abstract ideas into books; Tennessee turns books into abstract ideas."

[Vardelm]

From Twitter, regarding the recent enthusiasm for censorship: "Tennessee is just closing the loop: authors turn abstract ideas into books; Tennessee turns books into abstract ideas."

That could go on the ZBB quote thread, but it's not a quote from a member, so...