Development of Norse America in a conworld with an earlier Viking Age

[Otto Kretschmer]

Lets say in this conworld Viking Age starts 200 years earlier due to faster development of naval technology., The equivalent of the raid on Lindisfarne takes place in 593 rather than 793. Iceland is discovered in 674 AD. Christianization of England and Saxony is delayed.


When could the Norse discover America and what chances that it stays pagan? Getting just 200-250 settlers there would be enough to start an explosive population growth and dominate the continent

[Torco]

I don't think the vikings were all that into a multi-generational project to become the master race of faraway lands they regarded as semi-mythical, tbh.. you're thinking of early modern europpeans. There's a fair chance that the Americas had been sporadically contacted by old worlders, almost certainly including polynesians. Also, native americans weren't bad at making love or having babbies, why do you think 200 blonde blue-eyed norse would have bred them into submission?

I'm sorry to accuse, but this gives me a funky master race vibe. this is not the typical ways in which people interact... humans from faraway people groups can, upon meeting one another, do many other things besides engage in a race war to see which race is going to be the master race.... then again, sadly they sometimes do, see the Romans, Spaniards, Americans or Afrikaaners, but these were well-funded, well-organized, state-sponsored megaprojects of settler colonialism and ethnic supremacy, not 200 random colonists placed in a random bit of the inferior continent.

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taking the premise seriously, though, I think a norse-american polity, say the modern state of Maine or something, would have had relevant consequences in world history: notably, that native americans would have had early exposure to the old world pathogens: in this scenario, it seems unlikely that the Spaniards would have had such an easy time conquering the continent. The guys there were pretty badass, you know.

[Moose-tache]

We've covered this topic before: a few hundred people would not create a self-sufficient colony capable of conquering a continent. The Greenland settlements were probably an order of magnitude more populous than that. Rather than turn the clock forward a couple of centuries (I'm not sure what that would accomplish anyway), you need more people. But that's not easy to do, when there is a finite supply of Norwegians. Presumably.

If we want the Norse to persist in North America to the present day, that's doable, even if they don't dominate their neighbors. They had iron bloomeries, stunty little cows, and a literate organized religion, all big advantages, though I assume most of them would quickly osmote to the rest of the area. If your colony can manage a few thousand people instead of a few hundred, and maintain indirect contact with Europe for a while, then it could certainly survive.

Here's your real problem. Icelandic is already obnoxiously similar to Old West Norse. What is Vinland Norse going to do except sit there and also be obnoxiously conservative and identical to Icelandic? You're setting yourself up to fail, conlangistically.

[Richard W]

Here's your real problem. Icelandic is already obnoxiously similar to Old West Norse. What is Vinland Norse going to do except sit there and also be obnoxiously conservative and identical to Icelandic? You're setting yourself up to fail, conlangistically.

On past form, I would say it may contribute a few cultural loan words to the local language, and be replaced by the local language. If it survived, it might go native, depending on the strengths of contacts. Someone else here has been doing an Algonquianised North Germanic language.

[Emily]

We've covered this topic before: a few hundred people would not create a self-sufficient colony capable of conquering a continent. The Greenland settlements were probably an order of magnitude more populous than that. Rather than turn the clock forward a couple of centuries (I'm not sure what that would accomplish anyway), you need more people. But that's not easy to do, when there is a finite supply of Norwegians. Presumably.

If we want the Norse to persist in North America to the present day, that's doable, even if they don't dominate their neighbors. They had iron bloomeries, stunty little cows, and a literate organized religion, all big advantages, though I assume most of them would quickly osmote to the rest of the area. If your colony can manage a few thousand people instead of a few hundred, and maintain indirect contact with Europe for a while, then it could certainly survive.

agreed. if the settlers are literate (i don't really know what the literacy situation was in scandinavia at the time tbh), then i'd imagine that at least the concept of writing would spread pretty quickly to the surrounding communities, whether they based their scripts on norse or created something new whole cloth

[Otto Kretschmer]

Elder Futhark was known since at least 160 AD.

[Travis B.]

A better conworlding project would be if Norse settlement had survived in the British Isles, and their dialect of Old Norse developed under Goidelic influence into an Irish Norse language. (I even tried to start this, but my limited Old Norse and Irish resources resulted in my dropping the project.) This is far more plausible than positing successful long-term Norse settlement of the Americas.

[Moose-tache]

A better conworlding project would be if Norse settlement had survived in the British Isles, and their dialect of Old Norse developed under Goidelic influence into an Irish Norse language. (I even tried to start this, but my limited Old Norse and Irish resources resulted in my dropping the project.) This is far more plausible than positing successful long-term Norse settlement of the Americas.

When you say "British Isles" do you mean Ireland? Or are you talking about a scenario in which Goidelic dominates Britain itself? As for British ON surviving into the present day, a year or two ago I made a modern Norse spoken in the Vale of Pickering called Yorwicks. I made it absolutely incomprehensible in accordance with local tradition. Maybe someday I'll post it here.

[Travis B.]

A better conworlding project would be if Norse settlement had survived in the British Isles, and their dialect of Old Norse developed under Goidelic influence into an Irish Norse language. (I even tried to start this, but my limited Old Norse and Irish resources resulted in my dropping the project.) This is far more plausible than positing successful long-term Norse settlement of the Americas.

When you say "British Isles" do you mean Ireland? Or are you talking about a scenario in which Goidelic dominates Britain itself? As for British ON surviving into the present day, a year or two ago I made a modern Norse spoken in the Vale of Pickering called Yorwicks. I made it absolutely incomprehensible in accordance with local tradition. Maybe someday I'll post it here.

I mean Ireland, northern and western Scotland, and the islands between.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Stuff that interests me the most is
1. Chances of Norse America staying Pagan
2. Relations between Norse America and Christian Europe

And yes, a heavily culture mixed Norse America would be even better. At best one that speaks a mixed Norse-American creole language.

[Moose-tache]

The Norse in the Americas weren't Pagan. Christianization was well under way during the early stages of Norse colonization of Greenland, and the church was quite important to their society, based on archaeological evidence. As for contact with Europe, Greenland mostly traded via Iceland, on ships made in Scandinavia. Unless they have some very impressive shipyards, the Norse colony in Labrador will just be one additional degree of separation. So we can assume contact with Europe will be weaker. But Greenland was surprisingly well connected with Europe (e.g. you needed a priest to be legally married, and all the priests came from mainland Europe).

Also, this is a terrible formula for a creole. Pidgins (and thus creoles) don't commonly spring up along the edges of two speech communities. Otherwise there would be hundreds if not thousands of creoles in pre-contact North America! They tend to develop where people need to communicate but can't really learn the other group's language for whatever reason. The normal strategy is, if you need to trade with the tribe next door, you just send a guy who speaks Nextdoorian.

[Otto Kretschmer]

This is a conworld in which the Viking Age starts 200 years earlier

There is no barrier for Old Norse to get heavy Algoquinian influence if the population is heavily mixed.

[Richard W]

I mean Ireland, northern and western Scotland, and the islands between.

I don't think Norn showed any Goidelic influence, even though it was spoken as far south as Caithness.

[Travis B.]

I mean Ireland, northern and western Scotland, and the islands between.

I don't think Norn showed any Goidelic influence, even though it was spoken as far south as Caithness.

I'm thinking more the highlands and the island of Man.

[sangi39]

As for British ON surviving into the present day, a year or two ago I made a modern Norse spoken in the Vale of Pickering called Yorwicks. I made it absolutely incomprehensible in accordance with local tradition. Maybe someday I'll post it here.

I can just imagine someone over at Flamingoland, operating the Mumbo Jumbo, asking everyone to keep their arms and legs inside the ride at all times, but in an incomprehensible descendent of Old Norse, and all the visitors from down south just having literally no idea what's going on

[Moose-tache]

...and all the visitors from down south just having literally no idea what's going on

As opposed to... ?

[keenir]

Stuff that interests me the most is
1. Chances of Norse America staying Pagan

you mean keeping the religions of the Native Americans?

This is a conworld in which the Viking Age starts 200 years earlier

given that in the 400s CE, according to National Geographic magazines, Britain was getting raided by Germanic and Scandinavian peoples...

There is no barrier for Old Norse to get heavy Algoquinian influence if the population is heavily mixed.

why not put a sprinkling of Norse linguistic influence on an Algonquin language(s) ?