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[malloc]

History question: when did academia become the hotbed of the left we know today? The first universities, founded by the Catholic Church under feudalism, were obviously far from anything we'd recognize as left wing. For centuries after that, they were the preserve of wealthy elites. Yet at some point they became heavily associated with the left.

[Raphael]

Whenever rebelling against one's upbringing became a common activity among young people from privileged backgrounds?

More seriously, I think I remember zompist reporting that at some time before Europe even had universities, there was a more or less university-like institution in China that was a hotbed of protests and activism.

One more data point: in Wilhelmine Germany, in the late 19th and early 20th century, the universities were apparently seen as even more conservative and nationalist than society as a whole.

[Ares Land]

As for French universities, I'd suggest some time in the twentieth century and it probably became a lot more significant in the sixties.

That about coincides with higher education being more accessible to different backgrounds. That and academic interest in Marxism.
(Note: law students, medical students are pretty right wing. STEM majors aren't very involved politically either.)

[Raphael]

Huh? I'm a bit confused - I thought I heard that there was already some student participation in the various Paris uprisings of the 19th century?

[Travis B.]

One more data point: in Wilhelmine Germany, in the late 19th and early 20th century, the universities were apparently seen as even more conservative and nationalist than society as a whole.

One thing about that, though, is that prior to the establishment of the German Empire, German nationalism was actually in many ways considered left-wing and was opposed by both Prussia and the Austrian Empire, and the revolutionaries of the Revolutions of 1848 sought to be establish a unified Germany.

[Raphael]

One thing about that, though, is that prior to the establishment of the German Empire, German nationalism was actually in many ways considered left-wing and was opposed by both Prussia and the Austrian Empire, and the revolutionaries of the Revolutions of 1848 sought to be establish a unified Germany.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. It was a bit more of a mixed bag than that. Even early in the 19th century, German student revolutionaries, despite being in opposition to the existing order of the time, already stood for a kind of romantic nationalism that saw moving too far to the left as a French thing. If they had been really left-wing or left-liberal at the time, it probably wouldn't have been so easy for the Prussian establishment to buy them off by co-opting German nationalism.

[keenir]

History question: when did academia become the hotbed of the left we know today? The first universities, founded by the Catholic Church under feudalism, were obviously far from anything we'd recognize as left wing.

not sure why they'd be "obviously far"...given that the Catholic Church was where most of the intellectual exploration and speculation was taking place. (so long as one didn't go overboard like Bruno - but thats true for any organization and political alignment)

One thing about that, though, is that prior to the establishment of the German Empire, German nationalism was actually in many ways considered left-wing and was opposed by both Prussia and the Austrian Empire, and the revolutionaries of the Revolutions of 1848 sought to be establish a unified Germany.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. It was a bit more of a mixed bag than that. Even early in the 19th century, German student revolutionaries, despite being in opposition to the existing order of the time, already stood for a kind of romantic nationalism that saw moving too far to the left as a French thing. If they had been really left-wing or left-liberal at the time, it probably wouldn't have been so easy for the Prussian establishment to buy them off by co-opting German nationalism.

maybe more of a moderate left-wing, rather than the far-left-wing that they saw as being French?

[Raphael]

History question: when did academia become the hotbed of the left we know today? The first universities, founded by the Catholic Church under feudalism, were obviously far from anything we'd recognize as left wing.

not sure why they'd be "obviously far"...given that the Catholic Church was where most of the intellectual exploration and speculation was taking place.

malloc described those early European universities as "obviously far from" the left, not as "obviously far from" "intellectual exploration and speculation". Those aren't the same things.

maybe more of a moderate left-wing, rather than the far-left-wing that they saw as being French?

Perhaps that was true for some of them, but their main direction was first and foremost nationalist - as can be seen by looking at how easily Bismarck could co-opt them.

[keenir]

History question: when did academia become the hotbed of the left we know today? The first universities, founded by the Catholic Church under feudalism, were obviously far from anything we'd recognize as left wing.

not sure why they'd be "obviously far"...given that the Catholic Church was where most of the intellectual exploration and speculation was taking place.

malloc described those early European universities as "obviously far from" the left, not as "obviously far from" "intellectual exploration and speculation". Those aren't the same things.

my bad; "the left" sometimes seems to sometimes encompass intellectual exploration/speculation, and sometimes simply being non-conservative/traditional, and sometimes something else entirely.

[Raphael]

my bad; "the left" sometimes seems to sometimes encompass intellectual exploration/speculation,

Of course, but it doesn't have a monopoly on that, and as conservative or mostly conservative institutions go, the Catholic Church has traditionally been one of the more intellectual ones.

[Travis B.]

my bad; "the left" sometimes seems to sometimes encompass intellectual exploration/speculation,

Of course, but it doesn't have a monopoly on that, and as conservative or mostly conservative institutions go, the Catholic Church has traditionally been one of the more intellectual ones.

It should be remembered that in medieval Europe, the Catholic Church was the center of intellectual activity overall, as conservative as it may seem to us today.

[zompist]

More seriously, I think I remember zompist reporting that at some time before Europe even had universities, there was a more or less university-like institution in China that was a hotbed of protests and activism.

I mentioned this in the Tiffany thread. We're talking about 2nd century Han China, where the imperial university in Luoyang had 30,000 students-- making a substantial proportion of the city's population of 200,000.

[Raphael]

More seriously, I think I remember zompist reporting that at some time before Europe even had universities, there was a more or less university-like institution in China that was a hotbed of protests and activism.

I mentioned this in the Tiffany thread. We're talking about 2nd century Han China, where the imperial university in Luoyang had 30,000 students-- making a substantial proportion of the city's population of 200,000.

Thank you!

[Ares Land]

Huh? I'm a bit confused - I thought I heard that there was already some student participation in the various Paris uprisings of the 19th century?

Indeed, the students were active in the 1848 Revolution (as elsewhere in Europe.) I think they were more on the moderate side though.
They didn't participate much, if at all, in the Paris Commune though.

I think they were mostly on the Republican / liberal side (as opposed to monarchists) but not involved or interested in the beginnings of socialism.

[Raphael]

Thank you, too!

[hwhatting]

Rather than couching it in terms of present-day left or right, I'd say (a bit cynically) that students tend to be at the forefront of current fashionable ideas that engage future elites. In the early-to-mid 19th century those were liberalism and nationalism, in the late 19th century those were nationalism and imperialism, in the early 20th century those were "völkisch" nationalism and fascism. Although Marxism / Socialism had aherents among students, they were mostly seen as threat by the elites most students at that time still came from, who were more interested in ways of integrating collectivist ideas into the class system and the nation state, which was something fascism promised. As Ares noted, Marxism / Socialism became relevant for wider circles among students only with the opening up of academia in the mid-20th century; the total discreditation of right-wing alternatives to boring bourgeois democracy also played a role here.
I have the impression that the modern, more streamlined and shortened University education system leaves much less time for political and social activism, and therefore student movements have become less prominent in youth political activism.

[Raphael]

Rather than couching it in terms of present-day left or right, I'd say (a bit cynically) that students tend to be at the forefront of current fashionable ideas that engage future elites. In the early-to-mid 19th century those were liberalism and nationalism, in the late 19th century those were nationalism and imperialism, in the early 20th century those were "völkisch" nationalism and fascism. Although Marxism / Socialism had aherents among students, they were mostly seen as threat by the elites most students at that time still came from, who were more interested in ways of integrating collectivist ideas into the class system and the nation state, which was something fascism promised. As Ares noted, Marxism / Socialism became relevant for wider circles among students only with the opening up of academia in the mid-20th century; the total discreditation of right-wing alternatives to boring bourgeois democracy also played a role here.
I have the impression that the modern, more streamlined and shortened University education system leaves much less time for political and social activism, and therefore student movements have become less prominent in youth political activism.

It's not just the students, though - being at least to the left of conservatives seems to have been the norm among the faculty in many departments for quite a while, too.

[Raphael]

Why are sour drinks and things to eat more refreshing when it's hot than less sour drinks and things to eat? What makes sour things so refreshing?

[alice]

Why are sour drinks and things to eat more refreshing when it's hot than less sour drinks and things to eat? What makes sour things so refreshing?

Here you go

[Darren]

Sour foods are more refreshing because they stimulate salivation, which makes your mouth and throat wet even if they don't impart much water. Must be something different going on with drinks though.