Halloween

[Travis B.]

I know I have asked about this on a previous iteration of the Zeeb, but do you pronounce it as H/æ/lloween or H/ɑː/lloween?

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I have, and have only ever encountered, the [æ] pronunciation.

[Linguoboy]

Interestingly, I noticed a spate of folks on my social meeds writing "Hollow's Eve" this year, suggesting they favour the /ah/ pronunciation.

[Travis B.]

Interestingly, I noticed a spate of folks on my social meeds writing "Hollow's Eve" this year, suggesting they favour the /ah/ pronunciation.

I tend to associate the /æ/ pronunciation with older people and the /ɑː/ pronunciation with younger people for some reason.

[alynnidalar]

Interestingly, I noticed a spate of folks on my social meeds writing "Hollow's Eve" this year, suggesting they favour the /ah/ pronunciation.

I tend to associate the /æ/ pronunciation with older people and the /ɑː/ pronunciation with younger people for some reason.

I do as well--/æ/ strikes me as an old-fashioned way to pronounce it, whether it is or isn't! (my location is the American Midwest, firmly in Inland North territory--which means for me it's technically /a/, but that's our equivalent of /ɑː/. The initial vowel is indeed the same as that of "hollow".)

[Travis B.]

Interestingly, I noticed a spate of folks on my social meeds writing "Hollow's Eve" this year, suggesting they favour the /ah/ pronunciation.

I tend to associate the /æ/ pronunciation with older people and the /ɑː/ pronunciation with younger people for some reason.

I do as well--/æ/ strikes me as an old-fashioned way to pronounce it, whether it is or isn't! (my location is the American Midwest, firmly in Inland North territory--which means for me it's technically /a/, but that's our equivalent of /ɑː/. The initial vowel is indeed the same as that of "hollow".)

Exactly the same for me - I have /ɑː/, i.e. [a], in it, but my dad has /æ/, i.e. [ɛ], in it.

[zompist]

/ɑ/, and I'm not exactly young. I don't remember what my parents said.

[Man in Space]

I’m with the boardlord on this one. I don’t recall ever meeting anyone who pronounced it with /æ/.

[Linguoboy]

/ɑ/, and I'm not exactly young. I don't remember what my parents said.

I actually caught myself saying it with /æ/ a couple time recently and was surprised. I don't where I could have picked that up, since it's definitely not what I grew up with.

I'm kind of curious whether there's any correlation with the alternative pronunciations of catalpa. (I'd never heard the /æ/ pronunciation until moving to Chicago. There's a street of that name right where my late husband was living when we met.)

[Travis B.]

I'm kind of curious whether there's any correlation with the alternative pronunciations of catalpa. (I'd never heard the /æ/ pronunciation until moving to Chicago. There's a street of that name right where my late husband was living when we met.)

I highly suspect cat/æ/lpa is a spelling pronunciation by people who are not familiar with the tree, i.e. people from areas where the tree does not typically grow. (Supposedly according to some maps catalpa trees grow here in Wisconsin, but according to other maps it is not native to here, and I personally have never heard of catalpa trees growing here. I suspect the same is true in the Chicago area.)

[zompist]

I'm kind of curious whether there's any correlation with the alternative pronunciations of catalpa. (I'd never heard the /æ/ pronunciation until moving to Chicago. There's a street of that name right where my late husband was living when we met.)

My parents' first house was on Catalpa, so I heard the word a fair amount in family stories, with [æl].

Possibly relevant is the word "Chicago" itself, which also has [a] > [æ] in lower class pronunciation. That got stigmatized, so there was a counter-shift to [ɔ] or [ɑ]. I grew up in the suburbs so I say Chic[ɔ]go.

[Travis B.]

I'm kind of curious whether there's any correlation with the alternative pronunciations of catalpa. (I'd never heard the /æ/ pronunciation until moving to Chicago. There's a street of that name right where my late husband was living when we met.)

My parents' first house was on Catalpa, so I heard the word a fair amount in family stories, with [æl].

Possibly relevant is the word "Chicago" itself, which also has [a] > [æ] in lower class pronunciation. That got stigmatized, so there was a counter-shift to [ɔ] or [ɑ]. I grew up in the suburbs so I say Chic[ɔ]go.

IMD (I'm from the suburbs of Milwaukee) it's Chic[ɒ]go, while my mother, who grew up in Kenosha, has Chic[ɑ]go (note that both of us have the NCVS).

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I'm kind of curious whether there's any correlation with the alternative pronunciations of catalpa. (I'd never heard the /æ/ pronunciation until moving to Chicago. There's a street of that name right where my late husband was living when we met.)

I've always spelled it catawba ([kʰə'tʰɑː.bə]), probably because of seeing it in the name of Catawba County and somehow almost nowhere anywhere else; consequently, orthographic catalpa produces [kʰə'tʰæɫ.pʰə] instinctually.

I've also just now realised that what I thought were paulownias were (at least sometimes) actually this kind of tree (which makes sense, regionally, the tent caterpillar is sometimes known as a catalpa/catawba worm, probably because these are the trees in which they often build their tents). I never looked very closely at the flowers, which are often purplish, and look vaguely similar at a distance.

I now have very conflicted feelings about what to call the tree, and how to spell its name.

[anteallach]

I have TRAP in Halloween, and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE. Those of you who have LOT: do you have it in any other -allow words (like hallow itself)? If not, I'm curious how the LOT pronunciation developed.

I'm not familiar with catalpa. Wiktionary says it's "a variant of catawba that originated when Giovanni Antonio Scopoli, the describing botanist, incorrectly transcribed the name". So the TRAP+/l/ pronunciation (which is what I'd instinctively use for the spelling catalpa) is presumably just a spelling pronunciation and the etymological pronunciation would be with THOUGHT and no /l/.

[Raphael]

I know I have asked about this on a previous iteration of the Zeeb, but do you pronounce it as H/æ/lloween or H/ɑː/lloween?

I think the former (my knowledge of IPA isn't that good), and the very idea that you could pronounce it in the latter way kind of weirds me out.

[Linguoboy]

I've also just now realised that what I thought were paulownias were (at least sometimes) actually this kind of tree (which makes sense, regionally, the tent caterpillar is sometimes known as a catalpa/catawba worm, probably because these are the trees in which they often build their tents). I never looked very closely at the flowers, which are often purplish, and look vaguely similar at a distance.

The Korean word for "catalpa" is actually 개오동 which means "dog pawlonia". (개- "dog" is a pejorative prefix which appears in botanical names with the meaning "false", e.g. 개나리 (lit. "dog lily") "forsythia".)

So the TRAP+/l/ pronunciation (which is what I'd instinctively use for the spelling catalpa) is presumably just a spelling pronunciation and the etymological pronunciation would be with THOUGHT and no /l/.

The latter is precisely what I have (having learnt the name orally from my naturalist father).

Catalpas are not native to the Chicago area, Travis, but they do grow here. There's one right outside my condo building in fact. As the climate continues to grow warmer, they probably start to thrive up here. My mother grew up calling them "cigar trees" because of their cheroot-like seed pods.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

I've also just now realised that what I thought were paulownias were (at least sometimes) actually this kind of tree (which makes sense, regionally, the tent caterpillar is sometimes known as a catalpa/catawba worm, probably because these are the trees in which they often build their tents). I never looked very closely at the flowers, which are often purplish, and look vaguely similar at a distance.

The Korean word for "catalpa" is actually 개오동 which means "dog pawlonia". (개- "dog" is a pejorative prefix which appears in botanical names with the meaning "false", e.g. 개나리 (lit. "dog lily") "forsythia".)

That's interesting. I looked up the Japanese word to see if it had a parallel formation, but the dictionary lists キササゲ (kisasage, Kanji spellings 木大角豆 and 楸 are both given), which looks to mean something like "tree-pea" (probably in reference to the pod).

Catalpas are not native to the Chicago area, Travis, but they do grow here. There's one right outside my condo building in fact. As the climate continues to grow warmer, they probably start to thrive up here. My mother grew up calling them "cigar trees" because of their cheroot-like seed pods.

They're nice trees, aren't they?

[Linguoboy]

They're nice trees, aren't they?

My dad hated them. He called it "a tree that drops shit three times a year". First you get the blossoms, which are very pretty but smell terrible when they fall and start rotting. If they fall onto pavement, they form a black slick that's unpleasant to walk on. Then you get the long black seed pods, which are impossible to rake up because they go right through the tines. Then finally the leathery leaves fall, and these are the worst of all. Once they get wet, they form an impenetrable blanket which smothers anything below it. They also cling tenaciously to pavement.

But the one by me is in front of the neighbours' building, not ours, so they're the ones who have to deal with all the cleanup. I just get to enjoy the flowers.

[Travis B.]

I have TRAP in Halloween, and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE. Those of you who have LOT: do you have it in any other -allow words (like hallow itself)? If not, I'm curious how the LOT pronunciation developed.

No. Hallow is not part of my native vocabulary (and I am only familiar with it, in the form of hallowed, from the Lord's Prayer, which I was never exposed to as a kid, growing up in an atheist household). Sallow (which itself is not really a native word for me either) has /æ/ for me, and marshmallow has /ɛ/. Note that Mallory has /æ/ for me.

[Rounin Ryuuji]

They're nice trees, aren't they?

My dad hated them. He called it "a tree that drops shit three times a year". First you get the blossoms, which are very pretty but smell terrible when they fall and start rotting. If they fall onto pavement, they form a black slick that's unpleasant to walk on. Then you get the long black seed pods, which are impossible to rake up because they go right through the tines. Then finally the leathery leaves fall, and these are the worst of all. Once they get wet, they form an impenetrable blanket which smothers anything below it. They also cling tenaciously to pavement.

But the one by me is in front of the neighbours' building, not ours, so they're the ones who have to deal with all the cleanup. I just get to enjoy the flowers.

That will make me think twice before planting one. I love everything that blooms, but maybe I ought to just find an actual paulownia instead.

Edit: Reading about those, they sound like maybe a bad idea, too.