Paleo-European languages

[WeepingElf]

This is not the place to discuss the epistemology of science, but if a theory predicts something which contradicts the observation (in this case, Goidelic names in SE Britain), that calls for an explanation, and in most cases, the easiest explanation is that the theory is flawed.

That said, Irish mythology has it that the Goidels came from Spain, but that may just be the invention of some far-travelling bards who had noticed that Goidelic was in some respects more similar to Celtiberian than to Brythonic, and these similarities, such as the preservation of Proto-Celtic /kw/, are merely archaisms and thus do not allow to construct a "Q-Celtic" node in the Celtic family tree.

[Moose-tache]

Presumably the pre-Irish reached Ireland via southern Britain, so even if we did find Goidelic placenames, that could just be an instance of interloping Britons keeping the existing name of Ceann Ulchabhan as Can Wlchaf or something. As it stands, it would be surprising if the incoming Britons, armed with nought but some extra Ps, eradicated every trace of Goidelic speakers before historic times. That's one reason why using placenames to locate groups in space and time is a fool's game. The existence of the occasional Clare or Derry in southern England doesn't tell us much about the linguistic history of the place, other than "maybe some pre-Irish were here at some point for some period of time, maybe."

[Travis B.]

Presumably the pre-Irish reached Ireland via southern Britain, so even if we did find Goidelic placenames, that could just be an instance of interloping Britons keeping the existing name of Ceann Ulchabhan as Can Wlchaf or something. As it stands, it would be surprising if the incoming Britons, armed with nought but some extra Ps, eradicated every trace of Goidelic speakers before historic times. That's one reason why using placenames to locate groups in space and time is a fool's game. The existence of the occasional Clare or Derry in southern England doesn't tell us much about the linguistic history of the place, other than "maybe some pre-Irish were here at some point for some period of time, maybe."

But remember, the assertion is not that the Goidels are merely descended from populations in SE Britain but that they were descended from populations there relatively recently, having fled from there when the Roman's arrived.

[hwhatting]

But remember, the assertion is not that the Goidels are merely descended from populations in SE Britain but that they were descended from populations there relatively recently, having fled from there when the Roman's arrived.

One point is that Goidelic must have been much closer to Brythonic in the 1st century AD (e.g. we know that syncope and apocope in Goidelic happened only a couple of centuries later), so it's not even clear whether we could easily distinguish Goidelic and Brythonic place names from that period. As for /p/ vs. /k^w/, we know that they were substituted for each other in loans between Brythonic and Goidelic even in early Christian times, so an absence of /k^w/ in British place names wouldn't be necessarily diagnostic.

[WeepingElf]

But remember, the assertion is not that the Goidels are merely descended from populations in SE Britain but that they were descended from populations there relatively recently, having fled from there when the Roman's arrived.

One point is that Goidelic must have been much closer to Brythonic in the 1st century AD (e.g. we know that syncope and apocope in Goidelic happened only a couple of centuries later), so it's not even clear whether we could easily distinguish Goidelic and Brythonic place names from that period. As for /p/ vs. /k^w/, we know that they were substituted for each other in loans between Brythonic and Goidelic even in early Christian times, so an absence of /k^w/ in British place names wouldn't be necessarily diagnostic.

Goidelic and Brythonic were close enough to be considered dialects of the same language in the 1st century AD, I think. It even appears as if the /k^w/ > /p/ shift wasn't completed yet in Gaulish and thus probably also Brythonic by the time of Julius Caesar, considering the Gaulish river name Sequana (now the Seine). These close resemblances between the different ancient Celtic languages also speak against the idea that the Bell Beaker people spoke Proto-Celtic - it just can't be that old!

[hwhatting]

It even appears as if the /k^w/ > /p/ shift wasn't completed yet in Gaulish and thus probably also Brythonic by the time of Julius Caesar, considering the Gaulish river name Sequana (now the Seine).

The occasional conservation of /k^w/ in Gaulish is disputed, BTW; I remember seeing an etymology of Sequana as containing not /k^w/, but the sequence /k/ + /w/ due to suffixation. I remember this propsal being mentioned and discussed on the now defunct Continental Celtic Yahoo group, but I don't remember the author or the name of the article.

[WeepingElf]

It even appears as if the /k^w/ > /p/ shift wasn't completed yet in Gaulish and thus probably also Brythonic by the time of Julius Caesar, considering the Gaulish river name Sequana (now the Seine).

The occasional conservation of /k^w/ in Gaulish is disputed, BTW; I remember seeing an etymology of Sequana as containing not /k^w/, but the sequence /k/ + /w/ due to suffixation. I remember this propsal being mentioned and discussed on the now defunct Continental Celtic Yahoo group, but I don't remember the author or the name of the article.

I have once come up with the idea that there was some sort of "Druidic" language, playing a similar role as Vedic in India, which was more conservative than the everyday language and had preserved /k^w/, and name forms such as Sequana were from that language. But as I said earlier here, I am not a Celticist. Where is Dewrad when we need him?

[Moose-tache]

Presumably the pre-Irish reached Ireland via southern Britain, so even if we did find Goidelic placenames, that could just be an instance of interloping Britons keeping the existing name of Ceann Ulchabhan as Can Wlchaf or something. As it stands, it would be surprising if the incoming Britons, armed with nought but some extra Ps, eradicated every trace of Goidelic speakers before historic times. That's one reason why using placenames to locate groups in space and time is a fool's game. The existence of the occasional Clare or Derry in southern England doesn't tell us much about the linguistic history of the place, other than "maybe some pre-Irish were here at some point for some period of time, maybe."

But remember, the assertion is not that the Goidels are merely descended from populations in SE Britain but that they were descended from populations there relatively recently, having fled from there when the Roman's arrived.

Ye- yes? Do you always start with "But remember" when you're agreeing with people?

[Travis B.]

Presumably the pre-Irish reached Ireland via southern Britain, so even if we did find Goidelic placenames, that could just be an instance of interloping Britons keeping the existing name of Ceann Ulchabhan as Can Wlchaf or something. As it stands, it would be surprising if the incoming Britons, armed with nought but some extra Ps, eradicated every trace of Goidelic speakers before historic times. That's one reason why using placenames to locate groups in space and time is a fool's game. The existence of the occasional Clare or Derry in southern England doesn't tell us much about the linguistic history of the place, other than "maybe some pre-Irish were here at some point for some period of time, maybe."

But remember, the assertion is not that the Goidels are merely descended from populations in SE Britain but that they were descended from populations there relatively recently, having fled from there when the Roman's arrived.

Ye- yes? Do you always start with "But remember" when you're agreeing with people?

I wasn't exactly agreeing with you - I was pointing out that were the Goidels to have fled SE Britain from the Romans, there would not have been much time for the Britons to have erased any linguistic signs of the Goidels' presence before the Romans started writing them down.