Erdani - a stateless society.

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Ares Land
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Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Ares Land »

We were talking politics -- (or con-politics) and I've been thinking about anarchism and fictional politics for a while. So I think I'll give some ideas on how a stateless society might be conceivable.

This is conworlding, not political science, and probably not something I should like to see implemented. There's something freeing about fictional politics: it has to be workable and a little bit dramatic, but you don't have to make it utopian :)

It turns out I have a lot to say on the subject, and I hope bits of it will be interesting. This post is awfully long, but it's supposed to be the first in a series of installments -- there's a lot more I'd like to cover.

A bit of context.

Before getting into Erdani's political system, it's best to place this society in its general context.

Erdani has about 80 million inhabitants. This is a highly urban society; the largest city is Ash'ashoma, pop. about 8 million. The common language is Erdan; the language of the dominant ethnic group. Names given in a conlang in this thread will be in Erdan unless otherwise noted.
Two sizable minority groups have lived in Erdani for centuries: the Ashkarosi and the Rilrili. Add to this the Saredi who are, in fact, a distinct species of hominid. Erdani used to be a colonial power -- the kind of empire over which the sun never sets. There has been, and still is, a fair amount of immigration and there are sizeable Tarandim, Ba'anta and Guwda communities, especially in Ash'ashoma.

What technologies are available? Erdani is a highly industrialized society -- with automobiles, railways, a highly developped manufacturing sector. There are a handful of highly rudimentary computers. The Erdan understand radioactivity, relativity, and the basics of quantum mechanics. They don't use nuclear power in any way: no power plants and no atomic weapons (they probably know more than enough to build some, though.)


Geography and history
Erdany is at the east coast of the Sea of Anger; it's isolated by mountain ranges to the east and south. There is no obvious natural barrier to the north except for the cold -- these latitudes are inhospitable. The mountains are by no means impassible, but still the Erdans have traditionally turned towards the sea rather than towards the continental interior.
Erdani is part of the Middle Seas cultural complex. ('Middle Seas' referring to the Sea of Anger and the Serene Sea.)

Middle Seas cultures have a long history that I will not detail here. One notable fact is that they've never been good at strong unitary states. Geography and culture more conducive to small city states or semi-feudal clan-based societies. Still, there is, from time to time, an imperial interlude.

The latest of these interludes was called the Second Erdan Empire. It covered much of the Middle Seas area, and a large colonial empire, the kind on which the sun never sets -- a quarter of the planet's surface and 500 million subjects. In 4680 (the current year is 4730) it entirely collapsed.
In Erdani proper this was known as the Liberation (o Miʔvodáme) -- a name that should give you the general idea that people at home weren't terribly happy with their empire either.

I won't get into the specifics here. The general idea was that the Empire was a dysfunctional and corrupt authoritarian regime in its heyday, and ended up as a failed state. Erdani had learned to do without a state -- it could be said it never had liked the idea of having one anyway -- and, in a way, they decided to keep on like that.

With that infodump out of the way, let's get on to the more interesting part and figure out how the stateless society works in practice.

The stateless society.

The basics - arbitration and law.

Let's assume you're an Erdan citizen. And say you're in trouble with someone. Your business partner is cheating you. Some kid in the neighbourhood tried to mug you. How do you handle that?
The first step - as in our society - is to try figure out something on your own. You try to reason your business partner, or track down the kid's parents.
If that fails, you might be tempted to use violence. There is, after all, no police to stop you. That approach has a number of issues. I don't mean to say that violence never solves anything (quite a number of problems in Erdan society have been fixed by asssassination), but it invites retaliation, even a vendetta, and all in all it's probably never worth the trouble.
So the next step is arbitration. You and your opposite number find out someone you both trust enough. It could be a religious authority, a member of your trade union or just someone that happens to be widely known and respected by most everyone in the area.
She figures out some kind of arrangement that seems fair to both parties and gets a little something in return for her trouble.

That kind of makeshift tribunal works out pretty well for most small cases. What code of law is used? For an attempted mugging, common sense may be enough. Otherwise judges may rely on religious law, or precedent, or trade union regulation.
Precedents are compiled, which is why you need a person of learning. For difficult case, of course, you'll pick someone with a law degree. I've mentioned precedent, religious law (there are several competing denominations and sects), and trade union regulations and all of these are safe choices. But judges are entirely free to deviate from these if they feel it's necessary; provided they can get everyone to agree with the decision.

In theory, no one is forcing you to accept the verdict or to abide by it. In practice, there are strong incentives to do so. You have a reputation as a reasonable person to keep. Plus, hey, if you don't accept a fair ruling, your business associates or your neighbours have no reason to be honest with you, either. And as you get on the next, inevitable, conflict, the next arbiter you have to pick may have little patience for you.

Further complications.

What if, then, your judge can't find a satisfactory solution for both parties? Can you appeal from the decision? What if you can't agree on a judge?
If you can't agree on a judge, the accepted solution is for each party to pick up his own judge; then both judges will find a third judge, acceptable to them. If the two judges you picked can't agree on a third, repeat the process until a suitable panel is selected.

It's not uncommon to have a panel of ten judges. Having a large panel is not necessarily a sign that both parties are adverse to mutual agreement; it may simply be that the case is complex enough to warrant a few extra pairs of eyes. A judge will quite often bring a colleague on for assistance.
Can you appeal on the decision? Yep. You bring on your case again to a larger, different panel. You're entirely free to ask for appeal as many times as you want, provided you can find a judge to review your case again. Customarily you can appeal once or maybe twice. Three times is really pushing it and four times is unheard of.

Bringing on some muscle

The whole system relies on everyone playing by the unspoken rules. What if your business partner or that neighbours' kid you have trouble with simply denies there's a problem in the first place? What if they refuse to abide by the results?
I should emphasize that most of the time people do play by the rules. It's to the collective benefit to do so. There's a certain amount of social pressure -- having the reputation of a person that flouts the law has a costs.

Judges are supposed to have no means of enforcement. A legal saying, that they will repeat quite often, is that they have no troops at the ready.
In practice, they have the necessary contacts to keep order in the courtroom or bring defendants to court.

Taking an example, if that kid that mugged you refuses a trial -- you personally, know people who will drag him in court. If you know no such people, the judge will. Enforcers are available.
Is it police? A security force? Hired goons? All of the above. There is a strong incentive against unnecessary violence; because enforcers can and will be tried as well.

Punishment and legal fees

I'll start by clarifying one point: Erdany do use money and currency. Judges are compensated. So are enforcers.
When one party is considered in the wrong, it's customary for the defendant to pay for any costs incurred.
The main form of punishment, besides, is restitution (if you stole thing, of course you give it back) plus a monetary compensation.

For petty robbery, paying the legal fees is enough of a deterrent!

It looks like the obvious result would be the rich given free reign over the poor. The system has defense mechanisms against that:
  • It's understood that restitution and punishment should be proportional to wealth, and supposed to hurt a bit. Judges will request heavy legal fees and compensation for richer people.
  • As a result, taking on a rich defendant is a sound proposition for enforcers and judges alike.
  • Wealthy people can pay for enforcers; poor or middle-class people have the benefit of being more numerous and organized. As a mutual aid society, they can afford lawsuits as well as rich people.
  • A wealthy, well-connected person can make good money by taking on cases on behalf of poor people and collecting legal and enforcement fees.
Networks

The natural objection is what I described so far would work best in a tiny, homogenous community where people all kind of know each other. As we've seen, Erdani is a large country with a large number of communities that differ in ethnicity, culture, language and religion. How do things work out?

The answer to that is networking. One of the ways in which Erdani organizes itself is a set of networks. The Erdan word is evúše (pl. evúši), a route, or a road/rail network -- and by extension a clandestine one (think 'Underground Railway' for a similar English metaphor.)
The Erdan networks, in fact, were clandestine networks prior to the Liberation.

Erdan society features hundreds or thousands networks, most of them active only at the town, city or province levels. A few of the best know one include extended "families" such as the Karneshgha, the Alwe'ashe or the Mesagha, specific denomination of the Ashkaroshi religion (such as the Kansim or the Marghas), the Temple at Yerdus (the most important religions, in terms of followers, that is), the Metal Union, the Worker's Federation (both trade unions), the Mutual Aid Society, the Land Reform Organization, the newspaper Erdangha Dovodi -- Erdan Freedom, Sashu ('fighter') - a concurrent newpaper, the Heron clan, the Wolf clan and the Turtle clan (all three traditional Rilril extended lineages.)

Going back again to one of our first example; for argument's sake you have a disagreement with your business partner: that judge you both pick will be affiliated to one of these networks; say, the Karneshgha. If you happen to need arbitration in a dispute with someone from out of town, or a different province, you'll ask advice from a Karneshgha judge; the Karneshgha network will have the necessary contacts in the distant province.
Should you have trouble getting your opponent to court, the Karneshgha network can provide you with the necessary services.

Networks are both concurrent and complementary. As hinted by the list above, they're a very diverse set of organizations, wildly different in origin and purpose. The Karneshgha I mentioned above are a traditional group with deep roots in Erdani's feudal past. The Temple is an organized religion. The Mutual Aid Society is essentially a socialist organization. So is the Metal Union. The Karneshgha are not as rule, fervent supporters of socialism. The Metal Union isn't necessary very interested in feudal tradition.

The networks are there for mutual aid among their members, which entails a certain degree of specialization. The trade unions are good at labor laws. The Meshagha or the Alwe'ashe are good at protection services. The Rilril extended lineage cater mostly to the Rilril; the Ashkaroshi religious sects help out the Ashkaroshi, mostly.
Your average Erdan citizens will have ties to several of these groups, going to the Karneshgha for protection, the Temple for education, and the Metal Union for health insurance.

Then there are the unlikely alliances. The Land Reform Organization supports agricultural reform and resource redistribution. The Meshagha network was founded by feudal landowners and counts landowners and industrialists among its members. Both networks are actually friendly and deeply entwined one with the other. The Karneshgha are very similar to the Meshagha in history and makeup; both groups have a long standing feud, whereas Land Reform and the Metal Union, both supposedly socialist, deeply distrust each other.

Some formal arrangements of convenience can be suprising. If a Meshagha associate has trouble wiht a Metal Unionist, the judging panel may include members from the Heron clan, with security of the trial provided by Ashkaroshi. The benefit of this is that an Ashkaroshi religious scholar or an elder of a Rilril clan can be expected to be as neutral as possible with respect to the Meshagha-Metal Union/Karneshgha-Land Reform feud.

The organization of a network

The above may suggest that networks are very formal, hierarchical organizations. It's not quite that simple. Let's look at the workings of a specific network, say the Karneshgha.

Say you live in Odashlas (that's a remote, small town in Diwisus province.) The honor of liberating the town at the downfall of the empire falls to the Nonodi, a small network of mainly local importance. The Nonodi are affiliated with the local chapter of Karneshgha in Diwisus province.

This does not mean that the Karneshgha chairman over at the provincial capital gives orders, on a regular basis, to the Nonodi chairman in Odashlas. What happens is that the Nonodi network can refer to the Diwisus Karneshgha whenever it's out of its depth, or if it needs helps out of town. This also means that if the Diwisus Karneshgha ever need a service over in Odashlas, the Nonodi will grant it as a matter of course.

The local chapter of the Karneshgha has a similar relationship with one of the Karneshgha divisions over at Ash'ashoma, the capital. In turns each of the Ash'ashoma will turn to the Karneshgha network head if necessary.

There can be any number of unexpected alliance at each level. The Karneshgha are generally at odds with the Meshagha, but it's perfectly possible that the chairman of the Karneshgha at Diwisus has relatives in the Meshagha network. The Karneshgha are typically allied with Land Reform but it may happen that the Nonodi chairman and the Land Reform representative over at Odashlas can't stand each other.

The average Erdan citizen does not formally belong to a network, in the sense of paying dues or having a membership card. You're "affiliated" to Land Reform, the Nonodi or the Karneshgha in the sense that you'll turn to them for help. The networks do have formal members; typically the same people that act as judge but not necessarily so.

Formal members are asked to pay a share of their income to the network (in turn the network is expected to aid them in case of need). They get to vote on the local, provincial or national chairmans and members of the administration and can be asked for their input on important decisions.

Typically consensus, or even unanimity is sought on a vote, especially so on a leadership vote. The leader of a network is appointed for a long time, perhaps for life, and he or she is expected to have the entire support of his base. Network are supposed to act on consensus, with full agreement of all members. Conversely, it is entirely normal and expected that networks will split from time to time. Especially so if the leadership changes; this is entirely expected. The newly formed network will keep ties with its parent organization, depending on how deep the disagreement were.

Most networks have elected leaders; it used to be that the position was hereditary. The Karneshgha see themselves as a large family; 'Karneshgha' is a surname, that of one of its leaders (though not the most memorable one) -- but it's not technically one, not in the sense of a kinship group.
Conversely, trade unions and socialist organizations which had delegates and representatives with restricted terms rather than chairpeople and leaders have converged towards the same model of an elected leader-for-life. Rilril kinship groups or Ashkaroshi religious sects have some extra requirements (you have to be Rilril, of the correct clan/moiety, or Ashkaroshi of the right denomination) but otherwise adopted the same model.

How is a network financed? Typically formal members pay a share of their income. To help with that, they're helped in setting up businesses or serving as judges. A network will offer the average citizen services, judicial or otherwise, for free, with the understanding that they'll help out in the network business, or serve as ad-hoc security.
Finally, networks will offer protection to business; for a small fee, you get to put up a notice on the storefront to the effect that you're under Karneshgha protection.

Their most reliable form of funding turned out to be lotteries. The Erdan are enthusiastic gamblers. Plus it's good form to support a network that might help you someday by buying lottery tickets.
keenir
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by keenir »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 am We were talking politics -- (or con-politics) and I've been thinking about anarchism and fictional politics for a while. So I think I'll give some ideas on how a stateless society might be conceivable.
This is a good read, a very interesting take on a fictional society.

I have one quibble question: how is this stateless?
(see below)
So the next step is arbitration. You and your opposite number find out someone you both trust enough. It could be a religious authority, a member of your trade union or just someone that happens to be widely known and respected by most everyone in the area.
What happens if the two parties can't agree on a judge?

That kind of makeshift tribunal works out pretty well for most small cases. What code of law is used? For an attempted mugging, common sense may be enough. Otherwise judges may rely on religious law, or precedent, or trade union regulation.

In theory, no one is forcing you to accept the verdict or to abide by it. In practice, there are strong incentives to do so. You have a reputation as a reasonable person to keep.
Maybe I've seen too much Midsomer Murders, but I sure hope none of the Erdan have a sense of superiority over any other Erdan - that would make them less likely to be reasonable (or to think they'd keep their reputation even if they cheat their partner)

...Which makes me wonder what stops a dishonest person from taking the hit to his reputation in, say, Town A, and simply moving to another town or region? Do the various associations keep track of such people? (to me, the paperwork for such tracking, legal precedents, dues and other finances, would make it cease to be a stateless society...the problem probably lies in my understanding of state/stateless-ness)...so far as I see, the Erdani are very very decentralized, but they still have a state.

regardless of my questions, I wish you well in this project, and hope to see more.
Travis B.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Travis B. »

Back when I was an anarchist, one of the key ways of handling crime and punishment that myself and the other anarchists I knew believed in was freedom of association. Of course, one may wonder what freedom of association has to do with crime and punishment - the connection is that freedom of association also means freedom to not associate, and that anyone could refuse to have anything to do with other people if they so see fit. Therefore, people could be punished in an anarchist society by other people shunning them, as is their right per freedom of association.

Of course, as I am not anarchist these days, I see there to be a major problem with this, i.e. why should enterprises, for instance, necessarily have an unconditional right to refuse to associate with people? What happens if, e.g., all the grocery stores where one lives refuse to sell one food, and one does not have land on which one can grow enough food to feed oneself indefinitely? There is a reason why at least here in the US we have the concept of protected classes, i.e. classes which membership within cannot be used as a reason to refuse one service or employment.
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Raphael
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Raphael »

I'm impressed - that sounds more plausible than I would have thought possible.
rotting bones
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

Rule by judges like in Somalia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy

If you want to scale up such a system, the natural question is how it would deal with wealth concentrations.

If there's a big pile of money in one building, what prevents vikings from raiding it? If the answer involves danegeld, can't the owner go one step further and hire the vikings to add to the bigness of his pile?
Ares Land
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Ares Land »

Thank you, guys!

keenir wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:26 am
So the next step is arbitration. You and your opposite number find out someone you both trust enough. It could be a religious authority, a member of your trade union or just someone that happens to be widely known and respected by most everyone in the area.
What happens if the two parties can't agree on a judge?
Another option is for each party to pick their own judge. Then let the judges try and agree on a judge.
In effect the case will be mediated by a three judge panel - the judges both parties chose at the beginning act a bit more like legal counsel.
Maybe the judges can't find an agreement, in which case, they'll in turn bring on judges of their own.
So it will be between the two parties and any number of judges. It can be good practice to bring on judges from diverse networks. Network rivalries can play a part in that so you have a better chance to find a satisfactory solution by bringing outside help.

That sort of procedure is also common for complex cases that require special expertise, or simply large dispute that involve a lot of people and/or a lot of money.
In theory, no one is forcing you to accept the verdict or to abide by it. In practice, there are strong incentives to do so. You have a reputation as a reasonable person to keep.
Maybe I've seen too much Midsomer Murders, but I sure hope none of the Erdan have a sense of superiority over any other Erdan - that would make them less likely to be reasonable (or to think they'd keep their reputation even if they cheat their partner)
Of course that does happen. Refusing mediation happens, though a lot of the time both parties feel they're in the right; it's in their interest to seek judgement -- there's a good chance the judge will vindicate them. If there's a business dispute, it's often the case that both sides have a case and both sides are a little in the wrong too; so judges will try to split the difference.
By contrast earning a reputation as dishonest is a bad idea; if you're in any kind of business, people might refuse to do business with you. If and when they are forced to go to trial, their past history means they're likely to get a bad verdict.

What happens is that 'unreasonable' people gradually lose protection from the law. If you won't agree to mediation, the other party may very well use force if it comes down to it. There are security services for hire. If you're really intent on eschewing reasonable mediation, you might be forced to trial and then get a harsh sentence, and have to compensate the folks that dragged you kicked in and screaming.

The worst case scenario is you end up an outlaw, which makes your property and your person forfeit -- you could in fact be killed with impunity.

The response is of course graduated; no one is going to outlaw you for petty theft. It's also understood you don't get to sue people for trifles and even less rough them up for that.

Of course you may hire your own bodyguards if you have the resources, in which case it may escalate to something of a gang war. Bodyguards, security services and judges are all connected to or member of networks; and it's in the interest of network to keep the peace. If you look like you might be starting a gang war, you'll get a lot of pressure from above to stop that.

I'll get into murder and other crimes later, also into network wars, which may make things clearer.
...Which makes me wonder what stops a dishonest person from taking the hit to his reputation in, say, Town A, and simply moving to another town or region? Do the various associations keep track of such people? (to me, the paperwork for such tracking, legal precedents, dues and other finances, would make it cease to be a stateless society...the problem probably lies in my understanding of state/stateless-ness)...so far as I see, the Erdani are very very decentralized, but they still have a state.
Nothing will stop them -- if they're willing to leave family, friends, job and whatever property they can't take along with them.
It all depends on what they do. First case: they're guilty of petty theft, or a small scale con job, as far as the people in Town A are concerned, the problem is solved -- the troublemaker left town and whatever they left behind will pay for damages caused.
What will happen in Town B? Either they'll make a more honest life for themselves (in which case there's no real problem), or they'll repeat the same thing. Some people do that, but not many and not for long, because it's a miserable kind of life. At some point they'll get into more serious trouble too.

Second case: what they did is serious. Murder, rape, or nothing of the sort but they left with a lot of money. Then the people you hurt in Town B will track you down. The organization required is not that complex: either they send someone to track you down, or they'll call up associates over in Town B. This as simple as placing a phone call and maybe sending a photograph. You'll find people over at town B will be quite willing to cooperate: nobody wants to deal with a con artist, a rapist or a murderer.
All of this has a cost; skipping town will be seen as as good as an admission of guilt, so the dishonest guy who fled may be saddled with the burden of ultimately paying for everything that was done to track him down.
This is perhaps not enough to discourage the con artists -- if not the rapists, who have other motives.
Travis B. wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:36 am Of course, as I am not anarchist these days, I see there to be a major problem with this, i.e. why should enterprises, for instance, necessarily have an unconditional right to refuse to associate with people?
The Erdan way is that you have such a right but it's not unconditional. If a business denies you service without reasonable cause, there are people who are prepared to act as judge in such a case. If you're known as a troublemaker, though -- and more specifically as refusing peaceful solutions to your issues -- no one will take your side in whatever other disputes you may have. That's why having a reputation as a troublemaker is a bad idea -- it sort of makes your fair game.
rotting bones wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:55 pm Rule by judges like in Somalia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy
Sort of. I found out that similar systems crop up all over the place; it seems to be the natural way people deal with conflict when the state is not available, for whatever reason.
If you want to scale up such a system, the natural question is how it would deal with wealth concentrations.

If there's a big pile of money in one building, what prevents vikings from raiding it? If the answer involves danegeld, can't the owner go one step further and hire the vikings to add to the bigness of his pile?
That's a good question and I will get into some detail later on. But the basic idea is that you're allowed a security force to guard your gold, but so do your neighbours. You can either go to war a figure out a compromise. Compromises are better for business and don't annoy the neighbours as much.
bradrn
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by bradrn »

A thought: how does Erdani avoid mafia-style organisations coming around and saying things like, ‘Gosh, this place looks mighty inflammable, don’t it? One carelessly-dropped match and it’d go up in flames, y’know what I mean?’ States have been trying for ages to stamp them out, and they haven’t succeeded yet…

(I suppose one could argue that the Erdani don’t avoid them, insofar as the various networks offer protection in return for payment. Except that those networks don’t attempt to harm anyone who doesn’t pay them. Which leads one to a better answer: that anyone who attempts to start a protection racket ends up with with a drastically shortened life expectancy. Though then again, that doesn’t seem to have stopped the real-life mafia, who in theory have even greater problems in this regard, the entire power of the state being against them.)
keenir wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:26 am I have one quibble question: how is this stateless?
The usual definition of the state I’ve seen is that it has a monopoly on violence. None of these organisations seem to have a monopoly on violence.
rotting bones wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:55 pm Rule by judges like in Somalia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kritarchy
On that note, let me recommend Friedman’s Legal Systems Very Different From Ours. (And also Scott Alexander’s review of the same, which has some interesting thoughts.)
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keenir
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by keenir »

bradrn wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:05 am
keenir wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:26 amI have one quibble question: how is this stateless?
The usual definition of the state I’ve seen is that it has a monopoly on violence. None of these organisations seem to have a monopoly on violence.
Doesn't seem like it, i agree. Nor do any of them have a monopoly (or any sort of involvement with) a mint to make the money used to pay dues to the networks....which hopefully will be addressed in a future post.
Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:12 amAll of this has a cost; skipping town will be seen as as good as an admission of guilt, so the dishonest guy who fled may be saddled with the burden of ultimately paying for everything that was done to track him down.

. If you're known as a troublemaker, though -- and more specifically as refusing peaceful solutions to your issues -- no one will take your side in whatever other disputes you may have. That's why having a reputation as a troublemaker is a bad idea -- it sort of makes your fair game.
Hmm, so if someone (ie me) gets offered a solution by a guy who pressures people into accepting deals favorable to himself, it really behooves me to simply give in and accept his deal - because if i refuse it, its my reputation that will suffer...and if I retreat either into my own home or go elsewhere, he wins and I lose both the solution and further reputation.

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding the situation.
rotting bones
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:12 am That's a good question and I will get into some detail later on. But the basic idea is that you're allowed a security force to guard your gold, but so do your neighbours. You can either go to war a figure out a compromise. Compromises are better for business and don't annoy the neighbours as much.
But won't the guy sitting on the bigger pile of gold command a larger army of vikings?

Also, this society seems to rely on norms a lot. To prevent the acceptable norms from coinciding with what people can get away with in practice, won't you eventually need a large class of easily triggered libs activists ruining it for everyone else?
keenir
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by keenir »

had a thought: what stops the networks - individual network or a group of them - from monopolizing the violence and becoming the state?

(if it can be stopped by the right words in the right ears to get other networks to prune back those networks which are getting too big for their britches, then we need to be sure those right words are from a person with a good reputation...oh why hello, Ambassador Palpatine) :D
(sorry)
Ares Land
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Ares Land »

bradrn wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:05 am A thought: how does Erdani avoid mafia-style organisations coming around and saying things like, ‘Gosh, this place looks mighty inflammable, don’t it? One carelessly-dropped match and it’d go up in flames, y’know what I mean?’ States have been trying for ages to stamp them out, and they haven’t succeeded yet…

(I suppose one could argue that the Erdani don’t avoid them, insofar as the various networks offer protection in return for payment. Except that those networks don’t attempt to harm anyone who doesn’t pay them. Which leads one to a better answer: that anyone who attempts to start a protection racket ends up with with a drastically shortened life expectancy. Though then again, that doesn’t seem to have stopped the real-life mafia, who in theory have even greater problems in this regard, the entire power of the state being against them.)
Your second answer is about spot on. Stores and business will typically pay a network for protection and place a sticker to that effect. (For the same reason our business advertise the presence of a CCTV.) It certainly has a deterrent effect.
Networks typically don't go around threatening people or extorting them. First, there's really no reason to -- there is crime in Erdani, and it will prey on unprotected business, at which point businesses will turn to you for protection -- why dirty your hands?
Second, if they did, the victims might very well turn to another network -- and the offending network would have to pay.
Third, it would lead to trouble higher up in the network. Networks have sort of a reputation to maintain. Typically that sort of thing -- which does happen from time to time, let's be honest -- is a local initiative, from a lower echelon in a network somewhere -- or there will be frantic PR work to make sure it's reported as a local fuckup -- and the network operative will be left defenseless, without any protection or contact from the rest.

The mafia can make extortion work because a) they prey on the vulnerable b) they have huge resources they can call on if necessary.
On the first point, extortion rackets target immigrants, possibly illegal ones, or minority groups the police doesn't care about. There is plenty of immigration in Erdani and not everyone's happy about it, but it's not illegal. Minority groups are allowed to have their own support networks. In a state society, if the police can't do anything about your problem, there's not much else you can do. In Erdani you can keep looking around until you find someone to help you.

As for the resources front, well, mafias make money also over drug trafficking, illegal gambling, prostitution, (historically) bootlegging, numbers games and other forms of illegal gambling. All of these are legal businesses in Erdani so the profit margins are lower.

Erdani is not meant to be utopian; it has not eliminated crime. There are protection rackets and other forms of crime. Networks might even be in on it. (Then again, a politician with mob ties isn't uncommon in real life either!) But the Erdan system handles it about as well as a state does.

The Erdan approach is I think more efficient in some ways as to crime. Much like any society it has its weaknesses too. (Assassination is acceptable and you can get heroin over the counter, for starters.)
rotting bones
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:52 am Your second answer is about spot on.
How is this world different from right-libertarianism? Is there any public infrastructure? If so, who maintains it? If not, how can most people afford to use privatized roads? Or is the city split into tribal areas that mostly affiliates have access to?
Ares Land
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Ares Land »

keenir wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:26 am had a thought: what stops the networks - individual network or a group of them - from monopolizing the violence and becoming the state?

(if it can be stopped by the right words in the right ears to get other networks to prune back those networks which are getting too big for their britches, then we need to be sure those right words are from a person with a good reputation...oh why hello, Ambassador Palpatine) :D
(sorry)
There is a power-sharing arrangement. Each network would benefit from being the state (with a caveat, see below) but the networks collectively have no interest in one of them having the top spots.
Networks leaders meet at irregular intervals in local, provincial convention -- plus a national convention on top of that. The conventions have three aims: socializing (perhaps the mostimportant after all; it helps that key people in each network know each other); fixing any dispute that can't be fixed in any other way; the third is establishing arrangement so that no networks holds a monopoly anywhere.

No network is allowed to entirely dominate a city or a province; no network is allowed to have a monopoly on anything -- and especially not on the military. Conventions members may decide to kick out a network for misbehaviour -- this generally leads to branches splitting or joining another network. Conventions will bring in new networks from time to time. They also have a say on who is network leader at any level, this to eliminate people that might be troublesome. Among other things they encourage network leader to be elected in quasi-unanimous votes; the natural consequence is that big networks tend to split over time.

In effect every network tries to makes sure the others don't get anything like a sufficient power base.

There's always an ambitious network leader. At first this led to civil war. Then to assassination. The last time it ended in forced retirement, probably a sign that the system is getting more stable.

At this point nobody really wants the headache of actually governing. Leading a network is comfortable enough; trying to be dictator carries a good chance of being assassinated anyway, so why bother?
But won't the guy sitting on the bigger pile of gold command a larger army of vikings?
This is a somewhat similar question; other powerful people or organizations will make sure nobody gets the bigger army.
rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:15 am Also, this society seems to rely on norms a lot. To prevent the acceptable norms from coinciding with what people can get away with in practice, won't you eventually need a large class of easily triggered libs activists ruining it for everyone else?
Definitely. Whether they can make their ideas stick depends a lot on how practical they are, and how well some sort of compromise everyone sort of agrees with can be found.
keenir wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:02 am Hmm, so if someone (ie me) gets offered a solution by a guy who pressures people into accepting deals favorable to himself, it really behooves me to simply give in and accept his deal - because if i refuse it, its my reputation that will suffer...and if I retreat either into my own home or go elsewhere, he wins and I lose both the solution and further reputation.

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding the situation.
No, you don't have to accept the other guy's deal. You're supposed to accept the deal suggested by a neutral third party. Emphasis on neutral; if some guy forces you to accept a "solution" he evidently figured himself, you're perfectly within your rights to refuse it. (That's why you can appeal on a judgement, and ask for large judge panels.)
rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:42 am
Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:52 am Your second answer is about spot on.
How is this world different from right-libertarianism? Is there any public infrastructure? If so, who maintains it? If not, how can most people afford to use privatized roads? Or is the city split into tribal areas that mostly affiliates have access to?
Heh, too bad I won't have time to get into economics today :)

There is public infrastructure -- a local convention of networks will figure out where it goes. It's understood everyone has to pitch in for public works in proportion to their wealth.

The Erdan respect private property to an extent. If you're wealthy, good for you! but people will respect your property to the extent that you share some of that wealth around. That includes providing for public works.

Not to say that tolls are out of the question in some cases -- but there will be retaliation if the prices are too high.

(Think of potlatches. In many societies it's expected that the wealthy essentially give their wealth away. Kind of the same logic.)
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

Doesn't this society rely on attackers being generally unpopular? Experience seems to indicate that invading someone else often bolsters your popularity among the people you materially support.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

By the way, I looked at Richard Carrier's blog yesterday and saw this: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/22561

This culture could be oriented around philosophies resembling Costa's.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Raphael »

rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 am Doesn't this society rely on attackers being generally unpopular? Experience seems to indicate that invading someone else often bolsters your popularity among the people you materially support.
That's a very good point.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Ares Land »

rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 am Doesn't this society rely on attackers being generally unpopular? Experience seems to indicate that invading someone else often bolsters your popularity among the people you materially support.
I'm not sure I understand that objection. What kind of situation are you thinking of?

I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't think our own society values physical violence that much. Outside fiction, most people would rather not interact with gangsters or serial killers.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by rotting bones »

Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:54 pm I'm not sure I understand that objection. What kind of situation are you thinking of?

I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't think our own society values physical violence that much. Outside fiction, most people would rather not interact with gangsters or serial killers.
Let's say neighborhood R relies on the patronage of Tunip and neighborhood U relies on the patronage of Skyleenz. Can Tunip really be shamed into not invading U, or is he right to think such a move will shore up his flagging popularity?

If the economy of each neighborhood owes a lot to their respective patrons from the point of view of capitalist token exchange, shouldn't we expect the people to fall into warring camps based on their economic interests?

---

Which reminds me: I'm not sure capitalism can work without centralization. You need to maintain inflation at a small positive rate to avoid a depression every 8-10 years. Who mints coins here?

There's an idea that currency maintains its fiat status only due to the fact that the state requires you to pay taxes in it. Does every network have a separate economy?
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by keenir »

Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:04 am ; the third is establishing arrangement so that no networks holds a monopoly anywhere.

In effect every network tries to makes sure the others don't get anything like a sufficient power base.
ah, okay; thank you.


and in a hypothetical...
keenir wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:02 am Hmm, so if someone (ie me) gets offered a solution by a guy who pressures people into accepting deals favorable to himself, it really behooves me to simply give in and accept his deal - because if i refuse it, its my reputation that will suffer...and if I retreat either into my own home or go elsewhere, he wins and I lose both the solution and further reputation.
Hopefully I'm misunderstanding the situation.
No, you don't have to accept the other guy's deal. You're supposed to accept the deal suggested by a neutral third party. Emphasis on neutral; if some guy forces you to accept a "solution" he evidently figured himself, you're perfectly within your rights to refuse it.
But I can't spend a lot of time looking for neutral judges - I need to get back to work/farming to feed my family.

So I can't go too far afield to find neutral judges, and all the nearby judges are either friends of the guy I'm butting heads with, or are friends of his friends.

But then, I never have very good luck in any reality; no worries.
:D

Ares Land wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:54 pm
rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 am Doesn't this society rely on attackers being generally unpopular? Experience seems to indicate that invading someone else often bolsters your popularity among the people you materially support.
I'm not sure I understand that objection. What kind of situation are you thinking of?

I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't think our own society values physical violence that much. Outside fiction, most people would rather not interact with gangsters or serial killers.
Assuming I understand Rotting Bones correctly, Rotting Bones is not referring to serial killers, but to politicians and generals who get more popular {thanks to increasing backing from supporters and former fence-sitters} during their leading an action (military or otherwise) against a nation or people that the supporters & fence-sitters look down upon.
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Re: Erdani - a stateless society.

Post by Travis B. »

rotting bones wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:35 pm Which reminds me: I'm not sure capitalism can work without centralization. You need to maintain inflation at a small positive rate to avoid a depression every 8-10 years. Who mints coins here?
Certain sorts would argue for creating an economy centered around cryptocurrency. Brilliant plan that. LOL.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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