anyway, reading through it, there's a lot of differences between 100 years ago and now that jumped out at me that i thought people might be interested in seeing. i'm using his transcription scheme with only a couple of updates to modern IPA symbols (just the symbols—our ʊ for his small-caps "u", for example—not the transcriptions themselves). for some of the examples i will have to rely on the ancient knowledge of those wizened graybeards and crones on the board who stubbornly cling to their cot-caught distinction in order to explain to me what has remained the same since 1919 and what has changed on that front. i'll probably do a separate post for each chapter or sectionThe term standard speech, it will thus be seen, has been used by the author without a very exact definition. Everybody knows that there is no type of speech uniform and accepted in practice by all persons in America. What the author has called standard may perhaps be best defined negatively, as the speech which is least likely to attract attention to itself as being peculiar to any class or locality. As a matter of fact, speech does not often attract notice to itself unless it is markedly peculiar. . . . there is likely to be, even in what we may justly call standard speech, a considerable area of negligible variation, negligible, that is, from the point of view of the practical use of language.
Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
i have a copy of a book from 1919 (pronunciation of standard english in america by george philip krapp) that aims to describe standard pronunciation in the US. the author, an english professor at columbia university, is undertaking a vocally descriptivist task rather than putting out a book of the "correct" pronunciations of frequently "mispronounced" words, and stresses that everything in it derives from his own observation rather than being culled from such books. the book is organized generally by phoneme, and by his own admission he uses a pretty broad transcription scheme, and clarifies what he means by "standard":
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
i'm mostly skipping the first two chapters, which are respectively a general description of phonetics and an explanation of the pronunciation of english phonemes. there are a couple of things that jump out, however:
- in describing the tendency of intervocalic /t/ to sound more like [d] (better, water, putty), he includes winter as an example ([ˈwɪndr])
- despite his otherwise wholehearted attempt at avoiding prescriptivism, he describes nasalized vowels as "faulty" and "lazy" and talks about how to "correct" it
- he goes into great detail (four whole pages) describing how to pronounce "r", which seems to be the only phoneme he uses two different symbols for (essentially, [ɹ] post-vocalically and [r] elsewhere)
- the vowel terminology he uses is striking: /i/ is "high blade tense wide", and /ɪ/ is "high blade slack neutral"
- the word err is pronounced /ɚ/???
- the pronunciation of the /e/ vowel (e.g. fate) and /o/ vowel (boat) are generally a simple long vowel, only forming the diphthongs [eɪ] and [oʊ] when fully stressed before voiced consonants or word-finally
- they couldn't decide in 1919 whether envelope should be "enn-velope" or "on-velope" any more than we can today
Last edited by Emily on Sun May 12, 2024 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
ok i'm actually breaking out the section on stress into a separate post since there's so many points
- transfer is given as an example of latinate words that stress the second syllable when used as verbs
- "In cement a distinction was formerly made between the noun [ˈsɛmənt] and the verb [sɪˈmɛnt], but now both noun and verb are stressed on the second syllable." — !!!
- a further comment on stress talks about how some words may shift stress depending on syntax or rhythm patterns of the word (e.g. how complex can have the stress on either syllable even just when used as an adjective), and one of his examples is the word occult, which he stresses on the initial in occult sciences but the final in in the regions of the occult (though in both the first vowel is a clear /ɑ/ and the second /ʌ/ with no schwas to be found). i think i've only ever heard the initial stress in dark shadows, a spooky soap opera from the 1960s; everyone i've ever heard say it in person has always stressed the second syllable, and the first is just a schwa
- pronunciation of program as [ˈprogrəm] rather than [ˈproˌgræm] is "a popular pronunciation" that "is also heard and seems to be growing in use" (i personally have only heard it from a speaker who originally came from georgia, or from a podcaster who does it as a joke)
- three-syllable words ending in -ate are typically stressed on the first syllable (acclimate, compensate, etc), "though some speakers cultivate a pronunciation with stress on the second syllable". he also states, though, that consummate is stressed on the first syllable as a verb, but on the second as an adjective!
- "usage is unsettled" on where to place the stress in other three-syllable words such as armistice and opponent; he states that "the prevailing usage" is to stress the first syllable in combatant and combative
- idea is standardly stressed on the first syllable, "but one frequently hears, especially in the South, [ˈaɪdɪə]"; stressing the first and second syllables equally "is popular and illiterate"
- despicable is most commonly pronounced on the first syllable; aristocrat is often stressed on the first syllable as well
- pronunciation of words like declamatory as [dɪˈklæməˌtɔrɪ] vs [dɪˈklæmɪtrɪ] is a US vs UK distinction even in 1919
- other words, however, are described as discarding secondary stress in "cultivated pronunciation" but often retaining it in "popular speech": interest [ˈɪntərɪst] vs [ˈɪntərˌɛst], interesting [ˈɪntərɪstɪŋ] vs [ˈɪntərˌɛstɪŋ] or even [ˌɪntərˈɛstɪŋ] (no indication of deleting the second vowel in either of these words); cemetery [ˈsɛmɪtrɪ] (!) vs [ˈsɛməˌtɛrɪ]; favorite [ˈfeːvrɪt] vs [ˈfeːvəˌraɪt] (!!!)
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2944
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
These are fun, I hope you keep going!
I think cot/caught is regional, not temporal. I will try to test this on my nieces at Easter.
I think cot/caught is regional, not temporal. I will try to test this on my nieces at Easter.
Today the American r is divided into bunched and retroflex. Do his descriptions seem to describe one of those?
That's understandable at least, except for "wide". Labov would contrast these as tense vs. lax.[*] the vowel terminology he uses is striking: /i/ is "high blade tense wide", and /ɪ/ is "high blade slack neutral"
I think that's accurate. I say [fejt] in isolation, but in quick speech there's not really time for diphthongization.[*] the pronunciation of the /e/ vowel (e.g. fate) and /o/ vowel (boat) are generally a simple long vowel, only forming the diphthongs [eɪ] and [oʊ] when fully stressed before voiced consonants or word-finally
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
One thing to also note is that some people have a covert cot-caught non-merger, like my mother, who grew up in Kenosha, not that far north of Chicago. She pronounces LOT as [a] and THOUGHT as [ɑ], which may be misheard by people not familiar with Inland North varieties as being a cot-caught merger.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
i was joking, i'm just born and raised in southern california
honestly i've always had trouble distinguishing different r's, and i can't really make head or tail of his description. he has it grouped under the fricatives (!). relevant passages quoted below (note that i am substituting "ɚ" for his older symbol, a schwa with a curled tail, which i can't find in unicode):
More: show
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2944
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
Wow, when he insists on the heavy frication, this does not sound like a contemporary r at all. This makes me think of ʐ, as in Polish rz or Mandarin initial r. It certainly isn't a tapped r.the 1919 dude wrote:§39.[/b] [r] is produced by raising the body of the tongue so that the sides of it press against the upper teeth, tilting the point of the tongue so that it just barely touches the bony ridge of the gums, and allowing the breath to escape with a distinctly audible friction over the point of the tongue and between the teeth, which are slightly open.
OK, that sounds like a retroflex r, which is one of the realizations of American r. It's pretty much what I have, but for initial r- as well.In pronouncing [ɹ] the point of the tongue is not tilted as high as in [r], but if it were permitted to touch the roof of the mouth, which it does not do, it would strike the region just back of the upper teeth and in front of the place where the concavity of the roof of the mouth begins.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
all right, time to get into the meat of it. i'm just going in the same order of the book, so we'll start where he does: ɑ and ɑː
ɑ
most of my other reportbacks from the book are just going to pull out interesting differences between 1919 english and 2023 english, but this section (and probably the [ɔ] section when i get to it) are going to summarize the text a little more comprehensively, and i'm hoping for feedback from east coasters* about how much of this stuff still is or isn't accurate
*everything past nebraska is the east coast
ɑ
most of my other reportbacks from the book are just going to pull out interesting differences between 1919 english and 2023 english, but this section (and probably the [ɔ] section when i get to it) are going to summarize the text a little more comprehensively, and i'm hoping for feedback from east coasters* about how much of this stuff still is or isn't accurate
*everything past nebraska is the east coast
- short [ɑ] is standard in the words fop, got, hot, lot, not, stock, chocolate, "and many other words written with o before a voiceless consonant", though he notes that parts of New England use something closer to [ɔ] instead, and that the [ɔ] pronunciation is heard as individual exceptions throughout the US
- in other environments, the choice of [ɑ] or [ɔ] is can go either way:
- before a voiced stop (dog, God, sod); [ɑ] is more common before [b] (rob, nobby)
- before [l] (doll, follow, pollen) or [r] (examples are coroner, forest, foreign, forehead, horrid, orange, torrid—every one of which my california ass pronounces with the [o] phoneme!)
- the word forehead is transcribed as "[ˈfɔrɪd] or [ˈfɑrɪd]", with no mention of today's second syllable [-ˌhɛd]—i knew this was a relatively recent spelling pronunciation, but i didn't realize it was so recent that it wouldn't even be mentioned!
- before nasals: John, on, strong, pomp, romp
- here he notes that the pronunciations [stɔmp] and [trɔmp] are "dialectal" pronunciations for stamp and tramp!
- [bʌm] is also heard for bomb, "though probably less commonly in America than in England"
- "before other continuants": coffee, off, soft; cost, hospital, ostrich; broth, bother; grovel, novel; he notes that grovel can also be pronounced with [ʌ], and that hovel and hover are either [ɑ] or [ʌ] but never [ɔ]
- after [w], both sounds can be found in words written with a, with [ɔ] being the more common preference: quarrel, swamp, swan, want, wash, wasp, water. he notes, however, that [ɑ] seems to be more common in swallow, wabble (presumably an older form of "wobble"), and further notes that individual speakers will also be inconsistent between different words
- listed under this phone (and the only item not discussing a variation with [ɔ] is a note about "the colloquial contraction aren't" becoming [eːnt] or [eɪnt], "but only in very familiar colloquial or dialect pronunciation", further extending to the singular in dialect speech
- the phone [ɑː] is "practically universal" only in the word father; in most other words it tends to vary either with [æ(ˑ)] (such as gather, lather, slather) or short [ɑ] (bother)
- alm is regularly [ɑːm] (psalm, palm, alms); the words salmon and almond can have either [æm] or [ɑːm], with an [l] pronunciation "sometimes heard" but "not general" (today, the most common pronunciations in my experience are [ˈsæmən] and [ˈɑlmənd])
- he lists the standard pronunciation of hearth as [hɑːɹθ], with [hɚɹθ] labeled "old-fashioned or dialectal"; my own pronunciation matches his standard, but i think by this point the word itself has become old-fashioned, and the pronunciation [hɚɹθ] isn't a holdover but an eye pronunciation
- data is [ˈdɑːtə] but is also "Anglicized" to [ˈdætə] (the android's pronunciation apparently doesn't exist yet); lava is likewise sometimes anglicized to [ˈlævə]; garage is [gəˈrɑːʒ], but "popularly often" [ˈgærɪdʒ]
- tomato is generally [təˈmeˑto], but [təˈmɑːto] is widespread, "especially as a consciously cultivated pronunciation"; he also states that [təˈmæto] "is relatively rare", but it's bonkers that it even exists
- in the present day, Colorado and (especially) Nevada are pronounced with /æ/ within the states themselves and generally throughout the country, while an [ɑː] pronunciation is sometimes found, especially in the east; according to the book, in 1919 this was the case not only for these two states but also for Alabama, Nebraska, and Montana!
- "In several regions of the Atlantic seaboard a glide vowel is introduced between a preceding [k], [g] and [ɑː], as in the Virginia pronunciation of carter [kɪˈɑːtə], garden [gɪˈɑːdən], but this pronunciation is distinctly local or dialectal" — what the fuck??
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
All of this is simply bizarre. Thing is, my parents were born in the 1950's, yet their speech is much closer to my daughter's (she was born in the late 2000's) than to this despite the time distance between when this book was written and when they were born being less than the time distance between when they were born and when my daughter was born.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2944
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 am
- Location: Right here, probably
- Contact:
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
Just for fun, I'll divide up a/ɔ/o for his sample words.
a: fop, got, hot, lot, not, stock, God, sod, rob, nobby, doll, follow, pollen, John, on, pomp, romp, bomb, hospital, bother; grovel, novel, swamp, swan, want, wasp, swallow
ɔ: chocolate, dog, strong, coffee, off, soft; cost, ostrich; broth, wash, water
o: coroner, forest, foreign, forehead, horrid, orange, torrid, quarrel
On reflection I think the [o] is allophonic before /r/.
a: fop, got, hot, lot, not, stock, God, sod, rob, nobby, doll, follow, pollen, John, on, pomp, romp, bomb, hospital, bother; grovel, novel, swamp, swan, want, wasp, swallow
ɔ: chocolate, dog, strong, coffee, off, soft; cost, ostrich; broth, wash, water
o: coroner, forest, foreign, forehead, horrid, orange, torrid, quarrel
On reflection I think the [o] is allophonic before /r/.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
I agree exactly on all of these. (Phonetically my THOUGHT vowel is open, and is similar to RP LOT, but that is another story.)zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:23 pm Just for fun, I'll divide up a/ɔ/o for his sample words.
a: fop, got, hot, lot, not, stock, God, sod, rob, nobby, doll, follow, pollen, John, on, pomp, romp, bomb, hospital, bother; grovel, novel, swamp, swan, want, wasp, swallow
ɔ: chocolate, dog, strong, coffee, off, soft; cost, ostrich; broth, wash, water
o: coroner, forest, foreign, forehead, horrid, orange, torrid, quarrel
On reflection I think the [o] is allophonic before /r/.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
This is common in Jamaican English, before both /a/ (= /æ/) and /a:/ ( = /ɑ:/). E.g. c[j]ard, g[j]angster.
The book may have been published in 1919, but the author was born in 1872, and may have been describing the speech of people older than himself.Travis B. wrote:Thing is, my parents were born in the 1950's, yet their speech is much closer to my daughter's (she was born in the late 2000's) than to this despite the time distance between when this book was written and when they were born being less than the time distance between when they were born and when my daughter was born.
-
- Posts: 1660
- Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:29 am
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
Also found in Channel Islands English, isn't it?
I have /ɑ/ in 'chocolate', 'ostrich', 'horrid', 'wash', and 'water', and 'orange' varies. (Also /ɔ/ in 'on', of course.)Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:32 pmI agree exactly on all of these. (Phonetically my THOUGHT vowel is open, and is similar to RP LOT, but that is another story.)zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:23 pm Just for fun, I'll divide up a/ɔ/o for his sample words.
a: fop, got, hot, lot, not, stock, God, sod, rob, nobby, doll, follow, pollen, John, on, pomp, romp, bomb, hospital, bother; grovel, novel, swamp, swan, want, wasp, swallow
ɔ: chocolate, dog, strong, coffee, off, soft; cost, ostrich; broth, wash, water
o: coroner, forest, foreign, forehead, horrid, orange, torrid, quarrel
On reflection I think the [o] is allophonic before /r/.
Reading the words in my head, though, it's not intuitive that they all have the same vowels. [sɔft] vs. [kɔəst] and [nävəl] vs. [swɑmp] I had to think about. Now that I'm thinking about the allophonic distinction, though, it's hard to tell which words have which.
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
- Rounin Ryuuji
- Posts: 2994
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
I have stress on the first syllable for both the noun and verb, though transference is stressed on the second syllable.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
I have the same.Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:45 pmI have stress on the first syllable for both the noun and verb, though transference is stressed on the second syllable.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
-
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:11 pm
- Location: Yorkshire
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
The first rhotic described sounds like an alveolar (or postalveolar, given the comparison to [ʃ] and [ʒ]) non-sibilant fricative. Such a sound is mentioned by Ladefoged and Maddieson as occuring in some South African English varieties, and I think it's also sometimes found as the release phase of the affricates used for historic /tr/ and /dr/ for speakers for whom they're not assibilated.
Err with NURSE is standard in BrE BTW.
Err with NURSE is standard in BrE BTW.
-
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:53 am
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
I presume it's representative of speech from an era before long distance telephones, radio, films with sound & television, which would have affected how people pronounce certain sounds.vlad wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:28 amThis is common in Jamaican English, before both /a/ (= /æ/) and /a:/ ( = /ɑ:/). E.g. c[j]ard, g[j]angster.
The book may have been published in 1919, but the author was born in 1872, and may have been describing the speech of people older than himself.Travis B. wrote:Thing is, my parents were born in the 1950's, yet their speech is much closer to my daughter's (she was born in the late 2000's) than to this despite the time distance between when this book was written and when they were born being less than the time distance between when they were born and when my daughter was born.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
IMO the influence of media content on how one speaks is overstated, as it is those around one who typically influence how one speaks the most.RichardFromMarple wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:00 pm I presume it's representative of speech from an era before long distance telephones, radio, films with sound & television, which would have affected how people pronounce certain sounds.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Pronunciation of Standard English in America (1919)
Yeah, I find that pretty baffling. I even just now listened to some recordings of Tangier and Smith Islanders to see if this was some highly regressive Tidewater feature but there's not a trace of it in their accents (which are rhotic anyway).
Among accents of European English, I strongly associate this sort of palatalisation with Northern Ireland. Maybe there are conservative accents among the Scotch-Irish in Appalachia with this feature?