United States Politics Thread 46

[Vardelm]

mid-naughties

Best term I've heard/seen yet for that decade!

[Raphael]

Thank you, zompist, that kind of clears it up!

Does anyone here know enough about US law to tell us what happens if a defendant at an arraignment says neither "guilty" nor "not guilty", because they're too busy shouting about the evils of witch hunts?

[Vardelm]

Does anyone here know enough about US law to tell us what happens if a defendant at an arraignment says neither "guilty" nor "not guilty", because they're too busy shouting about the evils of witch hunts?

I assume he would be restrained or removed if needed, and his lawyers would enter the plea for him.

[masako]

Does anyone here know enough about US law to tell us what happens if a defendant at an arraignment says neither "guilty" nor "not guilty", because they're too busy shouting about the evils of witch hunts?

I assume he would be restrained or removed if needed, and his lawyers would enter the plea for him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_compos_mentis

[Moose-tache]

By default, if the defendant refuses to plea, the court must assume a plea of not guilty.

My question is: is this just going to become standard procedure from now on? Once a president leaves office, their opponents just nail them on a parking violation to exact revenge for their actions as president? "Aha! That's the man who bombed a wedding in Yemen! Or erroded the separation of powers! Or... let gays have puppies, honestly... Let's throw him in jail for planting non-native ornamental grasses in a protected historic district!" Joe Biden has been in plitics for about nine hundred years, in a state that is basically a financial scam to begin with. There's no doubt they could get something on him if they wanted. Part of me is OK with it. It's like one of those fictional island societies where the king is executed whenever it's time to pick a new king. But it does seem like it would drive out the few non-crazies who might still want the job.

[Linguoboy]

In non-Trump news, it warms my heart to see Asa Hutchinson running. The pundits say he's a no-hoper and I'm sure they're right (and I wouldn't want his pro-gun anti-choice ass in highest office anyway), but just having someone in the race whose brand is going to be reminding all the other GOP candidates what craven amoral jackasses they are warms my cold hardened heart.

[zompist]

My question is: is this just going to become standard procedure from now on?

* Looks up from within a state where six of the last ten governors were tried in court for crimes, and four convicted * Hmm?

[Moose-tache]

My question is: is this just going to become standard procedure from now on?

* Looks up from within a state where six of the last ten governors were tried in court for crimes, and four convicted * Hmm?

I'm not sure I would hold up Illinois as a success case. But either way, it's hardly relevant. Leaders of a one-party state being held accountable for actual wrong doing is very different from partisan lynching. Biden isn't going to be jailed in 2029 for corruption; it'll be for removing the tag off a mattress, with the real motivation being that he didn't murder enough Latinos or something.

We spent the last forty years shouting at the GOP for eroding the rules and procedures that make democracy possible. Unwilling to be the last girl without a date to the Lunatic Ball, now the Democrats are having a go. If we pretend that it's OK when our side does it, we're just part of the bad guys now. I said the same thing during Trump's first impeachment: you can't just use any blunt instrument that is to hand just because you disagree with someone. Of course, that objection was quieted pretty quickly when Trump went and earned his second impeachment the hard way, but still. I am not eager to start a political laser fight in a hall of mirrors.

[zompist]

We spent the last forty years shouting at the GOP for eroding the rules and procedures that make democracy possible. Unwilling to be the last girl without a date to the Lunatic Ball, now the Democrats are having a go. If we pretend that it's OK when our side does it, we're just part of the bad guys now. I said the same thing during Trump's first impeachment: you can't just use any blunt instrument that is to hand just because you disagree with someone. Of course, that objection was quieted pretty quickly when Trump went and earned his second impeachment the hard way, but still. I am not eager to start a political laser fight in a hall of mirrors.

When Republicans are falling over themselves to describe the prosecution as political, I don't exactly get why you want to agree with them. Trump is a crook and the whole Republican doctrine that Trump doesn't have to obey the law, can't be tried in office, and can't be tried out of office, is a kick in the face to democracy. They are not holding themselves back because Democrats are so goody-goody. Quite the opposite in fact.

The Stormy Daniels case seems like relatively small potatoes, but it's just the one that beat the other cases he's facing to the courts.

[Raphael]

I'm not sure I would hold up Illinois as a success case. But either way, it's hardly relevant. Leaders of a one-party state being held accountable for actual wrong doing is very different from partisan lynching.

I'll grant you that, at the statewide level, Illinois is effectively a one-party state now, but, at the state-wide level at least, that seems to be a relatively recent development.

We spent the last forty years shouting at the GOP for eroding the rules and procedures that make democracy possible. Unwilling to be the last girl without a date to the Lunatic Ball, now the Democrats are having a go.

Part of the rules and procedures that make democracy possible is that people can get legal trouble even if they're very powerful.

[Raphael]

As much as I dislike linking to Twitter, here's some perspective:

https://twitter.com/Olivianuzzi/status/ ... 2380686338

Carmen & Casper got married today at the courthouse. They had no idea this would be happening. As they emerged from inside, they were marveling at the police barricades. “We can’t walk anywhere,” Carmen said.

As someone else on Twitter commented, "A reminder that people like this are the norm and we are the weirdos".

[Torco]

Yeah, whenever I get tired of very political people having the same byzantine debates over and over again, reproducing a sort of hegelian transcendental Discourse what merely instantiates itself in particular people but is of the realm of forms, I try to talk to a normie.

[masako]

The Stormy Daniels case seems like relatively small potatoes, but it's just the one that beat the other cases he's facing to the courts.

Just for the lulz, let's presume that the timing is actually for more practical reasons.

"Trump may also argue that the statute of limitations — which is five years for most felonies in New York — has run out because the hush money payments and Cohen’s reimbursements happened before then.

There were some extensions during the pandemic, and state law also can stop the clock when a potential defendant is continuously outside the state. Trump visited New York rarely over the four years of his presidency and now lives mostly in Florida and New Jersey. His lawyers could question whether the timeout applies to elected officials serving in Washington."

[Linguoboy]

I'm not sure I would hold up Illinois as a success case. But either way, it's hardly relevant. Leaders of a one-party state being held accountable for actual wrong doing is very different from partisan lynching.

Uhm, of those ten governors, half were Democrats and half were Republicans. The most recent change of party was 2019.

[Travis B.]

Protasiewicz won - so maybe we will actually see the state abortion ban overturned and the state de-gerrymandered (for a state that has in many ways been Republican-dominated for over a decade now, despite the election of Evers and having one of our US senators being a Democrat).

[Travis B.]

That said, apparently the Republicans now have a majority in the WI state senate and are already talking about impeaching Protasiewicz even though she has not even been seated yet...

[Ahzoh]

Dunno where to put this, but this is a political thread so it might be relevant enough:

I just now had a thought that while I think the horseshoe theory of politics is bullshit, I have observed that red-brown alliances are common and that rightwing libertarians either become leftwing or, more often the case, they fall into the fascist pipeline. So I think that with regards to the extreme ends of the quadrants it is more like a bi-directional circle; authoritarians more easily switch from left to right, libertarians could be the same. extreme rightists can more easily switch from libertarian to authoritarian, and extreme leftists could be the same. I think it is harder for a libertarian leftist to transition directly to a fascist and vice-versa and harder for a right-wing libertarian to become an authoritarian leftist and vice-versa.

[Travis B.]

One recent "red-brown" thing that comes to mind is how all the hard authoritarian lefties (and even some of the libertarian ones - Noam Chomsky, I'm speaking of you here) came to apologize for the Russians in the Russo-Ukrainian War...

[Ares Land]

I think the biggest factor is dissatisfaction with the way things are run.

Say you start getting a bit more racist than you were (as often happens) or secretly worried that 'the woke' are coming to cut your balls (astonishingly common). If you're a communist, or a libertarian, you're probably deeply unhappy with the way things are. This might make fascism more attractive -- who cares if the fascists burn everything down? It's not like things were good anyway.

If, on the other hand, you're worried about the castrating immigrant terrorist woke feminists but a centrist (so more or less happy with the way things were run)... fascism is not as attractive. You like the way things are run... you just wish there was a bit more racism around.

Not that centrists are safe. Fascist-centrist electoral alliances can happen; centrists can be awfully racist and do a fair bit of damage in their own way too.

[Raphael]

Yeah, it's pretty frustrating how, at the moment, in a number of countries, 1) the people most likely to succeed in their attempts to overthrow the current status quo are really messed up, evil, and horrible, and guaranteed to rule in really messed up, evil, and horrible ways if they should really make it to the top, and at the same time, 2) the current status quo is itself pretty messed up and horrible, and unlikely to last forever.