Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

[Travis B.]

/p b t d k g/ <p b t d c~qu g>
/f v ð s z ʃ ʒ/ <f v rh s~ss~c s ch j>
/m n ɲ/ <m n gn>
/l r j ɥ w/ <l r y~i~ˡ u ou>
/a ɛ ɐ o i y u ɑ̃ ɛ̃ ẽ ø̃/ <a e eu o i~y u ou an en in un>
+ length <V̂>

ø̃n arlvɛː l ɛːtɛ paːsɛ j avɛ ø̃ kupj dɛː moːv dɛ grɔː nɛː k ɛːtɛ a lyː rpoːðɛ syː la grɛv dɑ̃ la bɛ̃ d sɛ̃t wɔ̃ tkɑ̃ i viːdr u prɛː d jɐː ø̃ kupj d moːv k i kɔ̃nɛːsɛ bɛ̃ ɛ ki dmɐðɛ a la kɔrbjɛð. j avɛ lõtɑ̃ k i n lɛːð avɛ pa vɐː ɛ i lyː mẽːdr a paːlɛ dy vjɛr tɑ̃ dɛ kɑ̃ i tɛ ʒɑ̃n ɛ k i alɛ a la pɛːk ɑ̃sɑ̃bj. i kaktiːdr pur ɐn poːð ɛ kɑ̃ i fy tɑ̃ pur lɛː sjɛn d grɔː nɛː a s ɑ̃ ralɛ sjɛð jɐː il ẽvitiːdr l oːt kupj a vnɛ̃ dinɛ ov jɐː a grɔː nɛː lɛ lɑ̃dmɛ̃ o sɛ. "aː mɛrsi," di la bwɔ̃nfɑ̃m moːv d la kɔrbjɛð. "vla ki noː fða grɑ̃ pjɛːði. a tʃil ɐð k i foːdra vnẽ?" i dɛsidiːdr pur sɛt ɐð ɛ nɛ vla lɛː dɐ kupj ki s ɑ̃ rvõ sjɛ jɐː.

Unn arlvê l'ête pâse y ave un coupˡ dê môv de grô nê qu'ête a lû r'pôrhe sû la grev dan la ben d' cent ouon t'can y vîdr' ou prê d' yêu un coupˡ d' môv qu'y connêse ben e qui d'meurhe a la corbierh. Y ave lontan qu'y n' lêth ave pa yêu e y lû mindr' a pâle du vier tan de can y te jann e qu'y ale a la pêc ansambˡ. Y cactîdr' pour eun pôrh e can y fu tan pour lê sien d' grô nê a s' an rale cierh yêu il invitîdr' l' ôt coupˡ a v'nen dine ov yêu a grô nê le landmen o se. "Â merci," di la bouonnfanm môv d' la corbierh. "V'la qui nô f'rha gran piêrhi. A tchil eurh qu'y fôdra v'nin?" Y decidîdr' pour cet eurh e ne vla lê deu coupˡ qui s' an r'von cie yêu.

I could of course do a quasi-etymological orthography, but my French is too rusty for that.

This one looks sufficiently Frenchy for a Oil language.

[chris_notts]

I've been reworking phonologies and, while I have my own ideas, I'm curious how others would prefer to write this one.

Can be analysed as having 11 consonant phonemes:

p t t͡ʃ k q m n ɲ ŋ ɮ j

There are 5 vowel qualities which occur long and short:

i e a o u iː eː aː oː uː

All except j can surface as geminate. Maximum syllable shape is CVC. Consonants are subject to a number of assimilation, lenition and fortition processes:

• The manner of q is somewhat variable and it often has a noisy / affricated release
• Geminates are always voiceless and generally occlusives, although ɮ only sporadically affricates when long.
• Intervocalic Lenition - Plosives have liquid and approximant allophones here, whereas affricatives weaken to fricatives.
• Internal Coda Weakening - p, t undergo total assimilation here, whereas k, q and t͡ʃ weaken to fricatives.
• Coda and Final Devoicing - ɮ and j devoice in coda position, and j merges with t͡ʃ.
• Nasal assimilation - nasals assimilate in place to following consonants.
• Word-Final Aspiration - Stops show aspiration word finally. Affricates and fricatives are in free variation.
• Word-Final Post-Stopping - Nasals are often post-stopped in final position, possibly to strengthen their place signals.
• Post-Consonant and Geminate Fortition - ɮ devoices and/or affricates in this position, and j merges with t͡ʃ.

There are some additional mergers, k -> j intervocally, and k, q -> χ in internal coda position.

Code: Select all

Position	p	t	t͡ʃ 		k 	q 		m 	n 	ɲ 	ŋ 	ɮ		j 
#_   		p	t 	t͡ʃ		k	q, q͡χ 		m 	n	ɲ	ŋ	ɮ		j
V_V   		β, v	ɾ	ʃ, s		j	ʁ		m	n	ɲ	ŋ 	ɮ		j 
_C   		G 	G	ʃ, s 		χ	χ 		N	N	N	N 	ɬ		ʃ, s
C_		p	t	t͡ʃ 		k	q, q͡χ 		m 	n	ɲ 	ŋ	t͡ɬ		ɲː, G 
Cː     		pː 	tː	t͡ʃː 		kː	qː, q͡χː 	mː 	nː	ɲː 	ŋː 	t͡ɬː, ɬː 	t͡ʃː
_# 		pʰ	tʰ 	t͡ʃ, ʃ, s 	kʰ 	qʰ, q͡χ, χ 	mᵇ	nᵈ 	ɲᶡ	ŋᵍ 	ɬ		t͡ʃ, ʃ, s

G represents gemination of an adjacent consonant, and N represents a nasal assimilated in place to a following consonant.

You can choose to represent the sub-phonemic variation or not, although I thought it was more interesting to capture some of it.

[chris_notts]

Seems like the monospace font on some devices borks the IPA symbols

[bradrn]

Seems like the monospace font on some devices borks the IPA symbols

Here’s a tabular version:

Position	p	t	t͡ʃ	k	q	m	n	ɲ	ŋ	ɮ	j
#_	p	t	t͡ʃ	k	q, q͡χ	m	n	ɲ	ŋ	ɮ	j
V_V	β, v	ɾ	ʃ, s	j	ʁ	m	n	ɲ	ŋ	ɮ	j
_C	G	G	ʃ, s	χ	χ	N	N	N	N	ɬ	ʃ, s
C_	p	t	t͡ʃ	k	q, q͡χ	m	n	ɲ	ŋ	t͡ɬ	ɲː, G
Cː	pː	tː	t͡ʃː	kː	qː, q͡χː	mː	nː	ɲː	ŋː	t͡ɬː, ɬː	t͡ʃː
_#	pʰ	tʰ	t͡ʃ, ʃ, s	kʰ	qʰ, q͡χ, χ	mᵇ	nᵈ	ɲᶡ	ŋᵍ	ɬ	t͡ʃ, ʃ, s

[bradrn]

I feel it’s easiest to transcribe this one in terms of the surface form:

[p~pʰ~β t~tʰ~ɾ t͡ʃ~ʃ~s k~kʰ q~qʰ~q͡χ~ʁ~χ] ⟨p t c k q⟩
[m~mᵇ n~nᵈ ɲ~ɲᶡ ŋ~ŋᵍ] ⟨m n y g⟩
[ɮ~ɬ j] ⟨l j⟩

Geminates can simply be written doubled: ⟨pp tt cc⟩ etc.

Vowels:

/i e a o u/ ⟨i e a o u⟩
/iː eː aː oː uː/ ⟨ii ee aa oo uu⟩

It would be nice to have a sample text to see how this looks in practice.

[chris_notts]

It would be nice to have a sample text to see how this looks in practice.

I only just finished the reworked phonology description, but maybe something like this as a first attempt, subject to change?

/qenap it͡ʃitunːaʃ ɮopen nakːapan neqin choːjuk opekːaɲːeːjiːn keŋeŋ/

[q͡χenapʰ iʃiɾunːaʃ ɮoβen nakːaβan neʁin t͡ʃoːjukʰ oβekːaɲːeːjiːnᵈ keŋeŋᵍ]

now 3.PFV-have=DET=ERG world entire-CL one=DET speech REFL-NARR-3-share-do=DET word

Now had the whole world one speech and it/they shared word(s)

(I only added the post-stopping of nasals when the following consonant was not homorganic because that somehow felt more sensible to me)

EDIT: in my current proposed orthography, which does reflect lenition, this would be:

"qenap isirunnas loven nakkavan nehrin cо̄juk ovekkannjējīn kengeng"

Although I don't really like ng and nj much, as discussed previously.

[bradrn]

OK, in mine that would be:

Qenap icitunnac lopen nakkapan neqin coojuk opekkayyeejjin kegeg.

On reflection I think I like macrons, giving:

Qenap icitunnac lopen nakkapan neqin cōjuk opekkayyējjin kegeg.

[Nortaneous]

[p t tʃ k q m n ɲ ŋ ɮ j] <p t c k q m n ñ ŋ l y>
[β ɾ s χ ʁ] <v r s q q>
[mb nd ɲɟ ŋg] <mb nd ñj ŋg>

/qenap it͡ʃitunːaʃ ɮopen nakːapan neqin choːjuk opekːaɲːeːjiːn keŋeŋ/

[q͡χenapʰ iʃiɾunːaʃ ɮoβen nakːaβan neʁin t͡ʃoːjukʰ oβekːaɲːeːjiːnᵈ keŋeŋᵍ]
Qenap isirunnas loven nakkavan neqin cōyuk ovekkaññēyind keŋeŋg.

[foxcatdog]

*m *n *ɲ *ŋ
*t *tʃ *k *kʷ
*b *d *dʒ
*s *h
*l
*r *ʀ
*j *w

*y *u *i
*ø *o *e
*œ *ɒ

And yes there is vowel harmony.

*mɒhu
*oski
*turɒ
*nørdy
*tœse
*joŋsi
*œkʷtœn
*bœtʃœ
*dʒɒkɒn
*ɲɒstʃi

*kyly, *kisten, *tʃœwœ, *kʷœn, *hynœn, *hɒndi, *dowun

[bradrn]

And yes there is vowel harmony.

Of what sort?

[foxcatdog]

And yes there is vowel harmony.

Of what sort?

front back with added neutral vowels
Also i forgot the fricatives

[chris_notts]

[p t tʃ k q m n ɲ ŋ ɮ j] <p t c k q m n ñ ŋ l y>
[β ɾ s χ ʁ] <v r s q q>
[mb nd ɲɟ ŋg] <mb nd ñj ŋg>

/qenap it͡ʃitunːaʃ ɮopen nakːapan neqin choːjuk opekːaɲːeːjiːn keŋeŋ/

[q͡χenapʰ iʃiɾunːaʃ ɮoβen nakːaβan neʁin t͡ʃoːjukʰ oβekːaɲːeːjiːnᵈ keŋeŋᵍ]
Qenap isirunnas loven nakkavan neqin cōyuk ovekkaññēyind keŋeŋg.

Sorry, I didn't see this before. Interesting mix of allophone representation: yes for p t c, no for q. I also think ñ might be the least bad for the palatal nasal, but bradrn's use of g for ŋ might be better.

[bradrn]

foxcatdog’s language:

/m n ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m n ñ g⟩
/t tʃ k kʷ/ ⟨t c k q⟩
/b d dʒ/ ⟨b d j⟩
/s h/ ⟨s h⟩
/l/ ⟨l⟩
/r ʀ/ ⟨r x⟩
/j w/ ⟨y w⟩

/y u i/ ⟨ü u i⟩
/ø o e/ ⟨ö o e⟩
/œ ɒ/ ⟨ä a⟩

/mɒhu, oski, turɒ, nørdy, tœse, joŋsi/ mahu, oski, tura, nördü, täse, yogsi
/œkʷtœn, bœtʃœ, dʒɒkɒn, ɲɒstʃi/ äqtän, bäcä, jakan, ñasci
/kyly, kisten, tʃœwœ, kʷœn, hynœn, hɒndi, dowun/ külü, kisten, cäwä, qän, hünän, handi, dowun

[foxcatdog]

*m *n
*ᵐb *ⁿd
*ɓ *ɗ
*bʱ *dʱ
*g
*p *t *k *kʷ *qʷ
*pʰ *tʰ *kʰ *kʷʰ *qʷʰ
*pʼ *tʼ *kʼ *kʷʼ *qʷʼ *ʔ
*t͡s *t͡ʃ *t͡ɕ
*t͡sʰ *t͡ʃʰ *t͡ɕʰ
*t͡sʼ *t͡ʃʼ *t͡ɕʼ
*ð *z *ʒ *ʑ *ɣ *ɣʷ *ɦ
*θ *s *ʃ *ɕ *x *xʷ *h
*θʰ *sʰ *xʰ
*ɬ *l *ʎ
*ʋ *j
*ɾ *ʀ

*i * ĩ *ʉ *u *ũ
*e *ɘ *ɘ̃ *o
*ɛ *ɛ̃ *ɐ *ɔ *ɔ̃
*a *ã

*ja *sɾĩ *pi *sũ *ka *zi *jã *ni
*mɛ̃ *pa *sã *pjã *vɾi *ta *bɛ *dʱi *nũ *ᵐbʎĺu
*t͡ɕʰɘ̃ *ʒɬo *kʷʼɔ̃ *ʃɐ *ɗʋã *klʉ *θʰɛ̃ *kʀɔ *qʷʼi
*ʎu *t͡sʰũ *kʷʰɐ *njo *t͡sʰʋa *ði *xʷe *ɣʷɛ

[bradrn]

/m n/ ⟨m n⟩
/ᵐb ⁿd/ ⟨mb nd⟩
/ɓ ɗ/ ⟨b d⟩
/bʱ dʱ/ ⟨bh dh⟩
/g/ ⟨g⟩
/p t k kʷ qʷ/ ⟨p t k kw q⟩
/pʰ tʰ kʰ kʷʰ qʷʰ/ ⟨ph th kh kwh qh⟩
/pʼ tʼ kʼ kʷʼ qʷʼ ʔ/ ⟨pʼ tʼ kʼ kwʼ qʼ ʼ⟩
/t͡s t͡ʃ t͡ɕ/ ⟨c č ć⟩
/t͡sʰ t͡ʃʰ t͡ɕʰ/ ⟨ch čh ćh⟩
/t͡sʼ t͡ʃʼ t͡ɕʼ/ ⟨cʼ čʼ ćʼ⟩
/ð z ʒ ʑ ɣ ɣʷ ɦ/ ⟨ð z ž ź ɣ ɣw jh⟩
/θ s ʃ ɕ x xʷ h/ ⟨þ s š ś x xw j⟩
/θʰ sʰ xʰ/ ⟨þh sh xh⟩
/ɬ l ʎ/ ⟨ł l ĺ⟩
/ʋ j/ ⟨v y⟩
/ɾ ʀ/ ⟨r rr⟩

/i ĩ ʉ u ũ/ ⟨i in ü u un⟩
/e ɘ ɘ̃ o/ ⟨é ə ən ó⟩
/ɛ ɛ̃ ɐ ɔ ɔ̃/ ⟨e en á o on⟩
/a ã/ ⟨a an⟩

/ja sɾĩ pi sũ ka zi jã ni/
/mɛ̃ pa sã pjã vɾi ta bɛ dʱi nũ ᵐbʎĺu/
/t͡ɕʰɘ̃ ʒɬo kʷʼɔ̃ ʃɐ ɗʋã klʉ θʰɛ̃ kʀɔ qʷʼi/
/ʎu t͡sʰũ kʷʰɐ njo t͡sʰʋa ði xʷe ɣʷɛ/

ya srin pi sun ka zi yan ni
men pa san pyan vri ta be dhi nun mbĺu
ćhən žłó kwʼon šá dvan klü þhen krro qʼi
ĺu chun kwha nyó chva ði xwe ɣwe

[EDIT: better romanisation for /h ɦ/, formerly ⟨h hh⟩.)

[foxcatdog]

*b *d
*p *t *k
*d͡z *d͡ʒ
*t͡s *t͡ʃ
*β *z *zʲ *ɣ
*ɸ *ɬ *s *sʲ
*ɾ *l
*w *j
*m *n *nʲ

*i *y *u
*e *ø *o
*ɛ
*a

Pitch accent with stress generally being on the penult

*no.t͡sá *au.bá *a.wá *tu.lá *ɬy.sí *tuɬ.ɬá *nu.á *ní.ɸi *d͡zá.da *ný.ne
*ní.we.ɬi *ɬýn.ne.t͡ʃa *ba.sú.e *ɸáɬ.ta.ɾe *mu.é.sʲi *ɬi.lá.da *ɸál.li *nýk.ɬi.ne *tó.nus.si *da.sá.we
*nɛ́k.ki *nøɾ.dɛ́ *ni.d͡ʒén *tu.βá *to.nʲí.sa *a.ɣá.na *janʲ.nʲá

[bradrn]

/b d/ ⟨b d⟩
/p t k/ ⟨p t k⟩
/d͡z d͡ʒ/ ⟨j ĵ⟩
/t͡s t͡ʃ/ ⟨c ĉ⟩
/β z zʲ ɣ/ ⟨v z ẑ g⟩
/ɸ ɬ s sʲ/ ⟨f x s ŝ⟩
/ɾ l/ ⟨r l⟩
/w j/ ⟨w y⟩
/m n nʲ/ ⟨m n n̂⟩

/i y u/ ⟨i ų u⟩
/e ø o/ ⟨e ǫ o⟩
/ɛ/ ⟨ą⟩
/a/ ⟨a⟩

Pitch accent marked with an acute accent: /a á/ ⟨a á⟩
It can be omitted if on the penult.

/no.t͡sá au.bá a.wá tu.lá ɬy.sí tuɬ.ɬá nu.á ní.ɸi d͡zá.da ný.ne/
/ní.we.ɬi ɬýn.ne.t͡ʃa ba.sú.e ɸáɬ.ta.ɾe mu.é.sʲi ɬi.lá.da ɸál.li nýk.ɬi.ne tó.nus.si da.sá.we/
/nɛ́k.ki nøɾ.dɛ́ ni.d͡ʒén tu.βá to.nʲí.sa a.ɣá.na janʲ.nʲá/

nocá aubá awá tulá xųsí tuxxá naá nifi jada nųne
níwexi xų́nneĉa basue fáxtare mueŝi xilada falli nų́kxine tónussi dasáwe
nąkki nǫrdą́ niĵén tuvá ton̂isa agana yan̂n̂á

[Starbeam]

/i y u/
/e ø o/
/ɛ a/
/m n nʲ/
/p b t d k ɣ/
/t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/
/ɸ β s sʲ z zʲ ɬ l/
/ɾ j w/

<i ü/ue u>
<e ö/oe o>
<ä/ae a>
<m n nj>
<hb b t d k h>
<ts dz tj dj>
<hv vv s sj z zj hl l>
<r j v>

Notes:

• Any <v> can be replaced by <w>, likewise with <j> and <y>.
• The pitch accent is marked with an acute accent or doubling the according vowel. Vowels spelled with two letters double the first one. It's typically not marked on the penult syllable of a word. An acute accent on <ä ö ü> makes them <a̋ ő ű>, respectively.
• An apostrophe separates multigraphs.

/no.t͡sá au.bá a.wá tu.lá ɬy.sí tuɬ.ɬá nu.á ní.ɸi d͡zá.da ný.ne/
/ní.we.ɬi ɬýn.ne.t͡ʃa ba.sú.e ɸáɬ.ta.ɾe mu.é.sʲi ɬi.lá.da ɸál.li nýk.ɬi.ne tó.nus.si da.sá.we/
/nɛ́k.ki nøɾ.dɛ́ ni.d͡ʒén tu.βá to.nʲí.sa a.ɣá.na janʲ.nʲá/

Notsá aubá avá tulá hlüsí tuhlhlá nuá nihvi dzada nüne.
Nívehli hlűnnetja basue hváhltare muesji hlilada hvalli nűkhline tónussi dasave.
Näkki nörda̋ nidjén tuvvá tonjisa ahana janjnjá

----
The asterisks next the phonemes amused me. Obviously, it's a con-protolang; but you're the creator of its universe and anything you say is unquestionable fact. That's even more reliable than if you were personally there. Not condescending on you or anyone else who does this, the habit's just kinda funny.

I challenged myself to use as few distinct letters and diacritics as possible and still seem vaguely intuitive. It's why my orthography it looks the way it does. I also didn't want to bust out the "apostrophe separates multigraphs" rule unless i absolute had to. Granted, some of it, like the front rounded vowels, forced my hand a bit.

I can't tell if the example is a word list or just a sentence beginning with all asterisks by mistake. Just gonna assume it's a passage from context. Also is it possible to have /au/ in one syllable and it still be a sequence, not a contour?

[bradrn]

I can't tell if the example is a word list or just a sentence beginning with all asterisks by mistake. Just gonna assume it's a passage from context.

I assumed it was a wordlist.

[foxcatdog]

It's not a proto language its attested in writing the proto language is in the Mythic World thread i just like the asterisks because they help with google docs (it stops things from capitalising)