English questions

[Man in Space]

My favorite example of bad Polish pronunciation here is /ˈpʊntʃki/ [ˈpʰʊ̃(n)ʔtʃci(ː)] for pączki when /ˈpɔntʃki/ [ˈpʰɒ̃(n)ʔtʃci(ː)] would be closer to the original Polish. Can we say hyperforeignism?

My mother was basically an L1 speaker of Polish and even she pronounces it the first way.

[Creyeditor]

How common is the diphthongization of /æ/ to something like [æe] or [æə] in English?

[Travis B.]

How common is the diphthongization of /æ/ to something like [æe] or [æə] in English?

Before nasals, diphthongization of /æ/ to [ɛə] or even [eə] is very common (one could even consider it standard) in NAE. Furthermore, in Inland North dialects typically this also occurs in general (but here in the Milwaukee area, despite the dialects here being Inland North, in the general case it is just raised to [ɛ]). Additionally, in some East Coast dialects there is a phonemic split of historical /æ/ into [ɛə]~[eə] and [æ].

[äreo]

How common is the diphthongization of /æ/ to something like [æe] or [æə] in English?

Before nasals, diphthongization of /æ/ to [ɛə] or even [eə] is very common (one could even consider it standard) in NAE. Furthermore, in Inland North dialects typically this also occurs in general (but here in the Milwaukee area, despite the dialects here being Inland North, in the general case it is just raised to [ɛ]). Additionally, in some East Coast dialects there is a phonemic split of historical /æ/ into [ɛə]~[eə] and [æ].

In some older Southern US accents, you'll get [æe] for /æ/ in largely the same places that trigger East Coast [eə] or Southern English broad A: can't, pass, bath... For quite a long time now, the guiding spirit of English has been quite fond of tensing or lengthening its short low vowels before /f θ s/ in particular. Nasals and /d/ often get involved too, for some reason.

[Creyeditor]

How common is the diphthongization of /æ/ to something like [æe] or [æə] in English?

Before nasals, diphthongization of /æ/ to [ɛə] or even [eə] is very common (one could even consider it standard) in NAE. Furthermore, in Inland North dialects typically this also occurs in general (but here in the Milwaukee area, despite the dialects here being Inland North, in the general case it is just raised to [ɛ]). Additionally, in some East Coast dialects there is a phonemic split of historical /æ/ into [ɛə]~[eə] and [æ].

In some older Southern US accents, you'll get [æe] for /æ/ in largely the same places that trigger East Coast [eə] or Southern English broad A: can't, pass, bath... For quite a long time now, the guiding spirit of English has been quite fond of tensing or lengthening its short low vowels before /f θ s/ in particular. Nasals and /d/ often get involved too, for some reason.

Thank you both. East coast makes sense, that's roughly the context I heard it in. I was just surprised when someone refered to this sound as a diphthong and then really pronounced it as such. Thanks for clearing this up.

[Moose-tache]

Where is the isocline between borrow "bar-o" and borrow "bore-o" in North America? And does it coincide with the sahr-y/sore-y distinction? It seems that bore-o reaches much further south than sore-y, but I don't know for sure.

[Travis B.]

Where is the isocline between borrow "bar-o" and borrow "bore-o" in North America? And does it coincide with the sahr-y/sore-y distinction? It seems that bore-o reaches much further south than sore-y, but I don't know for sure.

I have "sore-y" but "bar-o" myself, and I'm from southeastern WI.

[Travis B.]

Is anyone used to elision (with nasalization of preceding vowels) of nasals at the same (or almost the same) POA as following fortis stops and affricates, but not before lenis stops and affricates, in English? However, with nasals (other than /n/, which always assimilates to the POA of a following stop or affricate) at (significantly) different POAs from the following stops or affricates, this does not occur.

Consider the following:

bump /bʌmp/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔp]
bunt /bʌnt/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔ(t)]
fund /fʌnd/ [fʌ̃ːnt]
bunch /bʌntʃ/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔtʃ]
munge /mʌndʒ/ [mʌ̃ːntʃ]
bunk /bʌŋk/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔk]
bumper /ˈbʌmpər/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃pʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
bumble /ˈbʌmbəl/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːmbɯ(ː)]
bunches /ˈbʌntʃəz/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃tʃɘːs]
bungie /ˈbʌndʒi/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːntʃi(ː)]
bunker /ˈbʌŋkər/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃kʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
bungalow /ˈbʌŋɡəˌloʊ/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːŋɡəːˌɰo(ː)]
empty /ˈɛmti/ [ˈɜ̃m(p)ti(ː)]
Hampton /ˈhæmtən/ [ˈhɛ̃m(p)tɘ̃(ː)n]

[äreo]

Is anyone used to elision (with nasalization of preceding vowels) of nasals at the same (or almost the same) POA as following fortis stops and affricates, but not before lenis stops and affricates, in English? However, with nasals (other than /n/, which always assimilates to the POA of a following stop or affricate) at (significantly) different POAs from the following stops or affricates, this does not occur.

Consider the following:

bump /bʌmp/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔp]
bunt /bʌnt/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔ(t)]
fund /fʌnd/ [fʌ̃ːnt]
bunch /bʌntʃ/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔtʃ]
munge /mʌndʒ/ [mʌ̃ːntʃ]
bunk /bʌŋk/ [b̥ʌ̃ʔk]
bumper /ˈbʌmpər/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃pʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
bumble /ˈbʌmbəl/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːmbɯ(ː)]
bunches /ˈbʌntʃəz/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃tʃɘːs]
bungie /ˈbʌndʒi/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːntʃi(ː)]
bunker /ˈbʌŋkər/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃kʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
bungalow /ˈbʌŋɡəˌloʊ/ [ˈb̥ʌ̃ːŋɡəːˌɰo(ː)]
empty /ˈɛmti/ [ˈɜ̃m(p)ti(ː)]
Hampton /ˈhæmtən/ [ˈhɛ̃m(p)tɘ̃(ː)n]

I've heard Morgan Freeman give [mʌ̃θ] for month, which fits here.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

[Man in Space]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

Travis, the more you post about narrow phonetics in your dialect, the more I’m convinced that you’re one of the aliens that’s been sent to install the New World Order and have a hard time getting the accent right because English phonetics is so ridiculous in general.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

Travis, the more you post about narrow phonetics in your dialect, the more I’m convinced that you’re one of the aliens that’s been sent to install the New World Order and have a hard time getting the accent right because English phonetics is so ridiculous in general.

LOL. I have come to the opposite conclusion, that people are so unaware of how they speak that they cannot help but parrot the supposed standard phonology. Before I come to conclusions about how typical my speech is I try to spend some time listening to other people here and in media content just so I know if I'm just being weird or whether what I've observed is a broader dialect feature.

[Nortaneous]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

No, it's [oə̯] ~ [o̝i̯] and if I heard an actual [ɔʏ̯] I'm not sure I wouldn't map it to GOAT

[Darren]

[ɔʏ̯] is almost identical to the local AusEng GOAT vowel.

[bradrn]

[ɔʏ̯] is almost identical to the local AusEng GOAT vowel.

That actually sounds reasonable for a strong General Australian accent, though I have something more like [ɞ͡ʉ].

[Travis B.]

My daughter has [ɵ] for GOAT, as do I after coronals or /j/.

[anteallach]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

No, it's [oə̯] ~ [o̝i̯] and if I heard an actual [ɔʏ̯] I'm not sure I wouldn't map it to GOAT

I certainly map the German eu diphthong to English CHOICE. When I say them, however, I do maintain more rounding towards the end of the German diphthong than the English one.

[Nortaneous]

My daughter has [ɵ] for GOAT, as do I after coronals or /j/.

For me there's some kind of central vowel around labials - [pʰɹɵ̜vəɫɵ̜n] cheese, etc.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else have [ɔʏ̯] for /ɔɪ/ in English, particularly if you are not a native German-speaker?

No, it's [oə̯] ~ [o̝i̯] and if I heard an actual [ɔʏ̯] I'm not sure I wouldn't map it to GOAT

I certainly map the German eu diphthong to English CHOICE. When I say them, however, I do maintain more rounding towards the end of the German diphthong than the English one.

German eu maps almost perfectly to my CHOICE.

[anteallach]

No, it's [oə̯] ~ [o̝i̯] and if I heard an actual [ɔʏ̯] I'm not sure I wouldn't map it to GOAT

I certainly map the German eu diphthong to English CHOICE. When I say them, however, I do maintain more rounding towards the end of the German diphthong than the English one.

German eu maps almost perfectly to my CHOICE.

Do you think there is actually much German phonetic influence on your dialect?

And how like modern standard German would the speech of the German settlers in Wisconsin have been?