Flaws with the Metric System

[KathTheDragon]

I'm asking why it should matter. Please explain, I am fascinated to know why you care about "precision".

It's been explained several times, but since you're attached to your traditional, arbitrary, non-metric system you find defenses of someone else's traditional, arbitrary, non-metric system baffling. I'm pretty sure that in any other context you would not be so precious and parochial.

If you have a volume knob, it's better that it goes from 1 to 10 than from 4.2348 to 4.2349. If you can't imagine why, please don't design any UIs.

What's more baffling is that you feel the need to defend the system at all (and that Celsius users want to nitpick it). The argument to not change is always ultimately the same: you're used to it. That's the only argument in favour of Celsius I find worth making because anything else is pointless. Similarly the only argument worth making in favour of America adopting Celsius is to match literally every other country. But since America is God's perfect nation, they don't need to change a thing and everyone else should copy them instead. /s

And also, Zomp, your example is stupid for the very same reason that areo observed theirs was. I apologise for thinking that either of you would be charitable in reading my question, so I'll spell it out more explicitly; why is the level of precision that a unit of Celsius gives insufficient, but a unit just above half the size does provide enough precision?

[Travis B.]

But since America is God's perfect nation, they don't need to change a thing and everyone else should copy them instead. /s

/me rolls eyes.

[zompist]

But since America is God's perfect nation, they don't need to change a thing and everyone else should copy them instead. /s

Jesus. And you're ranting about "charitable interpretations." When you have nothing but bullshit to say, why not shut up?

The argument to not change is always ultimately the same: you're used to it.

No one here is arguing for or against "change". Nor is "you're used to it" the only possible reason anyone might have to like or dislike a measurement system. But it makes you feel special, so I guess keep making shit up.

Oh, and bonus precision argument: for everyday use, a metric ruler is more precise-- the smallest units marked, mm, are smaller than 1/16 inches. (Also more convenient; writing 5 3/16" is cumbersome.) That you cannot see this and cannot see how anyone else can think differently from you is a you problem.

[KathTheDragon]

Thankyou for validating my frustrations at not getting an actual answer even after making the actual question clear.

[Raphael]

Oh, for the record, neither the Metric nor the US Customary System is going anywhere. Each has too many use cases where it is long-established in both industrial and everyday contexts. It might happen that the USA - or the area that is now the USA - ends up as the last country on Earth to actually start using Metric, but even then, there'll almost certainly still be a lot of mechanical tools and electronics components whose sizes are round numbers in US customary units and varieties of nn.nnnnnnn in metric units. Replacing those mechanical tools and electronics components would be a gargantuan effort for no good reason.

Besides, constantly arguing about Metric vs US Customary or Imperial is besides the point, because the Metric System was never meant to replace US or Imperial measures. It was meant to replace the countless varieties of local measures that existed in France and much of Continental Europe before Metric got introduced here. And at that, it's been a resounding success. It's just that that factor didn't apply in Britain and the US, which already had a mostly unified system of measurements.

In fact, in British kidsplay, a gallon is a very large amount of usually a desirable liquid. So I was very surprised to learn it's not, in fact, a huge vat of something.

The old, pre-Metric German miles were really long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile#Historical That might be part of the reason why, in colloquial German, "meilenweit weg" ("miles away") still means "a very long distance away".

[xxx]

all systems are indifferent conventions...
in view of globalization, it would be wise to use the same system (e.g. the international system),
to prevent the next travel to Mars from crashing again...

[Richard W]

In fact, in British kidsplay, a gallon is a very large amount of usually a desirable liquid. So I was very surprised to learn it's not, in fact, a huge vat of something.

But the expression 'one over the eight' gives a fair expression of what a very large amount is.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but I wanted to provide my input.

Note that in the computing world, "micro" is commonly written with "u", by its graphic similarity to "μ", particularly in the case of "us" for microseconds.

I've always found this annoying. If you're limited to ASCII, I get it, but most programs are Unicode-aware these days.

(but kay in computing refers to kilobytes, i.e. what has been renamed "kibibytes" (even though that sounds awful to me)).

In my idiolect I distinguish between kilobytes and kibibytes—a kilobyte is 1,000 bytes and a kibibyte is 1,024 bytes (then again, I have a computer science degree). The difference is small at that scale, but as the corresponding prefixes get bigger, so does the relative difference between them.

Metric in general is whatever, but I will always be a Fahrenheit stan. It's more precise and the 0 and 100 points are more human-relevant.

Yeah, a one-degree difference is smaller in the Fahrenheit scale than in the Celsius scale, but converting between the two is just scaling and applying an offset. No precision is lost in the conversion itself—it's only when you round it that you lose precision.

Here Fahrenheit is perfect, because it practically always stays right in the range 0-100 F except on the most bitterly cold days of January, where it may go a bit under 0 F.

The thing is everyone knows that 32 F is freezing, and it easily gets below freezing here, whereas it practically never gets above 100 F (but it can get into the 90's F), making that a good upper limit.

I'm willing to bet you live north of me. Here in San Antonio, below-freezing temperatures are uncommon, but I don't blink that much when it's 100°F (or even a little above!) on a summer day.

I have my phone set to tell me the weather in Celsius, and I find myself paying the most attention to the tens digit when I want a gauge of how hot it is. What I think of as "cold", "cool", "warm", and "hot" may not cover exactly a 10°C range, and I don't use the multiples of 10°C as precise dividing lines, but I find it a more helpful approximation than trying to do the same thing with the tens digit of the temperature in Fahrenheit. I can't change the thermostat in my current apartment to Celsius, though, but I don't adjust my thermostat often.

[zyxw59]

I have a funny thing where i find farenheit more intuitive above ~60°F/15°C, and celsius more intuitive below. This is because i grew up in California, where colder temperatures were relatively rare, but when i went to college, i started making an effort to personally metricize, and spending the winter in Massachusetts is a great way to familiarize oneself with colder temperatures.

My biggest gripes with the metric system are

• the aforementioned issue of the base unit of mass (as far as derived units are concerned) having a magnitude prefix
• the inclusion of the mole as a base unit — that's not a unit, that's just a number!
• the inclusion of the candela as a base unit (and derived units like the lumen) — that's not an objective measurement of the world, it's the output of a function based on an experimentally-determined model of human vision
• the choice of conventions and scales for electromagnetic units that led to the constant μ₀ = 4π×10^-7 H/m; and then the redefinition of units such that now that definition of μ₀ is only approximate. This one i can at least excuse as a combination of wanting these units to be on scales that are practical for typical uses, and historical accident. But i still find it a bit silly

[sasasha]

In fact, in British kidsplay, a gallon is a very large amount of usually a desirable liquid. So I was very surprised to learn it's not, in fact, a huge vat of something.

But the expression 'one over the eight' gives a fair expression of what a very large amount is.

I've never heard that expression, so I wouldn't know.

[StrangerCoug]

I have a funny thing where i find farenheit more intuitive above ~60°F/15°C, and celsius more intuitive below. This is because i grew up in California, where colder temperatures were relatively rare, but when i went to college, i started making an effort to personally metricize, and spending the winter in Massachusetts is a great way to familiarize oneself with colder temperatures.

My biggest gripes with the metric system are

• the aforementioned issue of the base unit of mass (as far as derived units are concerned) having a magnitude prefix
• the inclusion of the mole as a base unit — that's not a unit, that's just a number!
• the inclusion of the candela as a base unit (and derived units like the lumen) — that's not an objective measurement of the world, it's the output of a function based on an experimentally-determined model of human vision
• the choice of conventions and scales for electromagnetic units that led to the constant μ₀ = 4π×10^-7 H/m; and then the redefinition of units such that now that definition of μ₀ is only approximate. This one i can at least excuse as a combination of wanting these units to be on scales that are practical for typical uses, and historical accident. But i still find it a bit silly

For me the dividing line is higher and has more to do with the context in which I encounter it. As I already stated, the weather I find more intuitive to work with in Celsius, but in the kitchen I still find it easier to think in Fahrenheit since all my oven controls and recipes are that way (even though my temperature probe I have set to Celsius).

[Raphael]

(but kay in computing refers to kilobytes, i.e. what has been renamed "kibibytes" (even though that sounds awful to me)).

In my idiolect I distinguish between kilobytes and kibibytes—a kilobyte is 1,000 bytes and a kibibyte is 1,024 bytes

Oh, thank you, good to know - I could have sworn it was the other way around!

I have my phone set to tell me the weather in Celsius, and I find myself paying the most attention to the tens digit when I want a gauge of how hot it is. What I think of as "cold", "cool", "warm", and "hot" may not cover exactly a 10°C range, and I don't use the multiples of 10°C as precise dividing lines, but I find it a more helpful approximation than trying to do the same thing with the tens digit of the temperature in Fahrenheit.

Interesting; I'd say for me it's more like ranges of five degrees. The high Celsius twenties definitely feel a lot less comfortable than the low Celsius twenties to me.

[jcb]

In fact, in British kidsplay, a gallon is a very large amount of usually a desirable liquid. So I was very surprised to learn it's not, in fact, a huge vat of something.

Really? Do you not have gallon jugs of milk in the UK?

Like this:

I've always found this annoying. If you're limited to ASCII, I get it, but most programs are Unicode-aware these days.

But most *keyboards* (at least on desktop computers) are still limited to ASCII characters, and searching for the Greek letter mu (or the separate "micro sign" *sigh*) on google or babelmap is inconvenient.

Which I already made earlier.

In case it wasn't clear, Celsius is not the SI temperature scale, Kelvin is.

To two digits of accuracy, it's usually about 285 K in London..

I think part of the problem in making and choosing a good temperature scale is that there's multiple competing important temperature points that humans care about to various degrees depending on the situation, but fitting these all on the same scale where each has a neat convenient "meaningful" number (0, 10, 100, etc) is impossible. By definition, you can pick two points to have meaningful numbers, but then the others will be forced to fall where they may.

Important Temperature Points:

• absolute zero (-273.15 C) (relevant to physics/chemistry)
• freezing point of water (0 C) (relevant to weather)
• freezing point of "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci" (-17.777 C, 0 F)
• boiling point of water (100 C) (relevant to cooking)
• typical temperature of a hot day in summer (21 C - 43 C) (relevant to weather)
• typical human body temperature (37 C) (relevant to medicine)

Fahrenheit (roughly) chose "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci" and typical human body temperature. Celsius chose the freezing and boiling point of water.

Fahrenheit proposed his temperature scale in 1724, basing it on two reference points of temperature. In his initial scale (which is not the final Fahrenheit scale), the zero point was determined by placing the thermometer in "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci [transl. ammonium chloride] or even sea salt". This combination forms a eutectic system, which stabilizes its temperature automatically: 0 °F was defined to be that stable temperature. A second point, 96 degrees, was approximately the human body's temperature. A third point, 32 degrees, was marked as being the temperature of ice and water "without the aforementioned salts".

Lastly, Fahrenheit’s other choices also reflect concerns over accuracy 4. For one, he decided not to use the freezing point of water as the zero reference. Instead, he chose 0F as the temperature of a brine—a mix of water, ice and ammonium chloride—because it is extremely stable thermally, more so than just water and ice. He also picked 32F for the freezing point of water because again dividing into a power-of-two number of line segments is easy to do accurately 5. And the fact that Fahrenheit is convenient for weather is no coincidence—Fahrenheit rejected using the boiling point as a reference because it was unsuitable for many meteorological applications.

[quinterbeck]

Really? Do you not have gallon jugs of milk in the UK?

Like this:

Our milk comes in pints! At the supermarket, there are plastic bottles of 1, 2, 4 and 6 pints. And the glass bottles the milkman delivers are 1 pint too.

Bear in mind imperial pints are 568.261ml while US pints are smaller at 473.176ml. And our gallons are a different volume to US gallons too. It looks like your gallon jug is a bit bigger than a six-pinter.

[Raphael]

Really? Do you not have gallon jugs of milk in the UK?

Like this:

Our milk comes in pints! At the supermarket, there are plastic bottles of 1, 2, 4 and 6 pints.

Not "1 pint, 1 quart, 2 quarts, 3 quarts"? Interesting.

For what's it worth, in German supermarkets - at least the ones I've been to - you rarely ever find bottles larger than 1.5 liters.

[quinterbeck]

Not "1 pint, 1 quart, 2 quarts, 3 quarts"? Interesting.

Heard of quarts but never used them - don't think I've ever seen anything measured in quarts in the UK.

[Zju]

Important Temperature Points:

• absolute zero (-273.15 C) (relevant to physics/chemistry)
• freezing point of water (0 C) (relevant to weather)
• freezing point of "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci" (-17.777 C, 0 F)
• boiling point of water (100 C) (relevant to cooking)
• typical temperature of a hot day in summer (21 C - 43 C) (relevant to weather)
• typical human body temperature (37 C) (relevant to medicine)

How is 'freezing point of "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci"' an important temperature point at all? IIRC it was chosen, because that was the lowest achievable temperature back when Fahrenheit scale was established, but now it's just arbitrary.

"typical temperature of a hot day in summer (21 C - 43 C)" is very poorly and loosely defined, way too wide of a temperature range, so not useful in practice to define a temperature scale.

Absolute zero is only ever relevant for scientific use, completely useless for day-to-day usage, and we already have Kelvin anyway.

That leaves us with:

• freezing point of water (0 C) (relevant to weather)
• boiling point of water (100 C) (relevant to cooking)
• typical human body temperature (37 C) (relevant to medicine)

[sasasha]

Ok I got a new temperature measurement based on my own perverse dislike of precision in this regard.

temperature measurement: °G (Degrees Glaciei)

-100 = absolute zero
then 100 units until freezing point of water / melting point of ice

each unit is 2.7315°C
there are 36.6099212887 units in 100°C

Temp over 0 in °C to temp in new system: (C)2.7315

Fridges need to be 1°G or lower
Freezers -7 to -8°G
You probably want a scarf below 5°G
Above 7°G and you probably don’t want a jumper

Code: Select all

°G	°C
1	2.7315
2	5.463
3	8.1945
4	10.926
5	13.6575
6	16.389		
7	19.1205
8	21.852	Room temperature
9	24.5839	Warm day
10	27.315	Brits complain
11	30.0465	Hot summer
12	32.778
13	35.5095	Normal body temp in this range
(13.5	36.87525)	Normal body temp
14	38.241	Fever
15	40.9725
16	43.704
17	46.4355
18	49.176
19	51.8985
20	54.63
21	57.3615	Minimum hot hold
22	60.093
23	62.8245 New name of coffee chain
24	65.556
25	68.2875
26	71.019
27	73.7505	Cook food above this temp
28	76.482
29	79.2135
30	81.945
31	84.6765
32	87.408
33	90.1395
34	92.871
35	95.6025
36	98.334
(36.61	100.000215	Water boils at sea level)
37	101.0655
38	103.797
39	106.5285
40	109.26
…
50	136.575
60	163.89
70	191.205
80	218.52		
(451°F is like 85°G or summit, so tell Ray Bradbury)
90	245.839
100	273.15

Yep, this sucks :p

[Torco]

a lifetime metric user am I. m versus M is news to me.

1, 4 - in context, it's almost never an issue (and where it might be, it's disambiguated). like, distance is going to be kilometers, weight is sure to be kilograms, etcetera. less common stuff like kilowatts is never just k.
3 - here I kind of agree: the base unit of weight oughtta have been something more intuitive, maybe like a few hundred grams (a cup or something). still, the kilo is plenty human-scale. grams are, in the mind, mili-kilograms and that's kinda weird.
5,6 - are? who uses ares? in my mind the hectare might as well be a basic unit, in which case yeah, it should have been called a field or something. in my country the de facto basic unit is the half-a-hectare (cinco mil metros cuadrados) of agricultural land, cause rural land can't be sold in smaller chunks than that (supposedly)
7 - possibly because the gram itself was defined as a millionth of a ton? i'm ever surprised that metric tons and freedom tons are almost the same.

tbh hectares are weird but that's somewhat because area is weird.

if i were to make up a new decimal system I'd take the cup(300 grams or so), the meter (maybe call it a step), the beat (however long a metronome beat is in 'happy birthday to you', probably about 1/100th of a minute. I always have trouble counting seconds mentally, they're a bit too long, but who doesn't know happy birthday to you), and whatever anyone else wants for amperes, kelvins and candelas because who cares about those. oh, and fuck moles, 1e24 or whatever. but, honestly, i have the feeling any old quantity would be about as useful once people get used to thinking in whatever order of magnitude is closest to their everyday experience.

that being said, i quite like inches. i learned about them as a child, of course, but stuck them into "bah, freedom unit number 21934761234 alongside the stone and the football field" but once i got into sewing (yeah, bought me a sewing machine, fun stuff! i can make pillows now) i got to liking them. it's a lot more pleasant to think about human-scale measurements in inches tbh. 56 centimeters are too many centimeters and might as well think 22 anyway. that being said, 16ths of an inch is just madness: what's wrong with 22.351 inches ?

Code: Select all

°G	°C
1	2.7315
2	5.463
3	8.1945
4	10.926
5	13.6575
6	16.389		
7	19.1205
8	21.852	Room temperature
9	24.5839	Warm day
10	27.315	Brits complain
11	30.0465	Hot summer
12	32.778
13	35.5095	Normal body temp in this range
(13.5	36.87525)	Normal body temp
14	38.241	Fever
15	40.9725
16	43.704
17	46.4355
18	49.176
19	51.8985
20	54.63
21	57.3615	Minimum hot hold
22	60.093
23	62.8245 New name of coffee chain
24	65.556
25	68.2875
26	71.019
27	73.7505	Cook food above this temp
28	76.482
29	79.2135
30	81.945
31	84.6765
32	87.408
33	90.1395
34	92.871
35	95.6025
36	98.334
(36.61	100.000215	Water boils at sea level)
37	101.0655
38	103.797
39	106.5285
40	109.26
…
50	136.575
60	163.89
70	191.205
80	218.52		
(451°F is like 85°G or summit, so tell Ray Bradbury)
90	245.839
100	273.15

honestly I... kind of fucking love it ? even degrees celsius feel like too big numbers for everyday use for me. like what's the difference between being 10 and 11 degrees outside? degrees G, however, feel inch-sized.

[jcb]

How is 'freezing point of "a mixture of ice, water, and salis Armoniaci"' an important temperature point at all? IIRC it was chosen, because that was the lowest achievable temperature back when Fahrenheit scale was established, but now it's just arbitrary.

That's my point: It was relevant **at the time**, but nowdays it's obsolete.

grams are, in the mind, mili-kilograms and that's kinda weird.

Yes, exactly.

5,6 - are? who uses ares? in my mind the hectare might as well be a basic unit, in which case yeah, it should have been called a field or something. in my country the de facto basic unit is the half-a-hectare (cinco mil metros cuadrados) of agricultural land, cause rural land can't be sold in smaller chunks than that (supposedly)

That's my point: The most commonly used unit should be the basic/unprefixed one.

it's a lot more pleasant to think about human-scale measurements in inches tbh

It's strange you say that, because I really like the size of a centimeter. It's conveniently about the width of a finger.

***

Anyways, since this thread has gone so well, my next thread will be about something even more controversial, like what's the best railroad track gauge, or which has better traffic signage?: the MUTCD (aka American style) or the VCRSS (aka European style).

(I'm joking, of course.)