Sound Change Quickie Thread
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Can /ʃ/ be allophonic with /x/ depending on the surrounding vowels? Would this allophony be relatively stable?
hē/him/his/hine
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
You mean [ʃ] and [x] - slashes indicate phonemes rather than phones. And why not? IIRC this exact allophony is found in some West Central German varieties.conlangernoob wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 1:58 pm Can /ʃ/ be allophonic with /x/ depending on the surrounding vowels? Would this allophony be relatively stable?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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- Posts: 66
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
OK, thanks. Sorry, I knew the slashes thing, I just forgot.
hē/him/his/hine
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Enggano goes even further with /x/ [s~ç~x].
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Depends on the environment, I'd deffo expect /ex ix/ [eʃ iʃ] while /ox ux/ [ox ux], or similar but with consonants before said vowels.conlangernoob wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 1:58 pm Can /ʃ/ be allophonic with /x/ depending on the surrounding vowels? Would this allophony be relatively stable?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
An early form of pre-Slavic probably had a x/sh alternation based on the following vowel, but that's not really how the phonemes work in any attested Balto-Slavic language, afaik.
I did it. I made the world's worst book review blog.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is it attested that it was fronting from ʃ to f? A split from earlier *θ/s just seems so much more likely: (θ →) s → ʃ ; (s →) θ → f. Elsewise, it'd have to be one of those rare phonetically unmotivated sound changes, such as *b → nc / V_V.Man in Space wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:53 pm Cross-posting from the Linguistic Miscellany Thread:
Per A grammar and dictionary of Gayogo̱hó:nǫˀ (Cayuga):A fronting of [ʃ] to [f]. I never would’ve figured on that as a direct step. ʃ to x and thence to f, sure, but this may be useful to some.Dyck, Froman, Keye & Keye (2024) wrote:SR – as in węhnihSRí:yo: ‘nice day’ – sounds like the SHR [ʃɹ] in shrink. Some speakers pronounce SR as FR [fɹ] instead, for example in words like ganǫ́hkwasraˀ (ganǫ́hkwaFRaˀ) ‘love’. SR syllabifies as two separate consonants, [ʃ.ɹ] or [f.ɹ].
/j/ <j>
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
So I have it that the ancestor of Vrkhazhian doesn't have voiced fricatives, it only has voiceless fricatives. Next I have this set of sound changes:
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_V
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_{m n ŋ r l}
{ʡ ʔ}C ⭢ Cː / _
V{ħ h} ⭢ Vː / _C
VC{ʡ ʔ ħ h} ⭢ VːC / _
However given this it means voiced fricatives can't occur word-initially, word-finally, or post consonantally. It also means that voiceless fricatives cannot occur word-medially following a short vowel. Lastly, it means that geminate voiceless fricatives can exist but not geminate voiced fricatives.
So, I need some more ideas to allow voiceless fricatives to exist after short vowels, and to also allow voiced geminate fricatives. I'm not sure if I want voice fricatives in initial, post-consonantal, or final position.
The language is triconsonantal, so analogy may sometimes play a part, but generally allophony doesn't stick. For example, you have a verb rabad- "to guard" which becomes rabad-ni "guard-1sg"and rabad-ma "guard-2sg" but rabat-ta "guard-3sg". It doesn't mean the /d/ in the root will analogize to /t/ for the rest o the paradigm. However, you can have a word like wast-am "mana" which has the construct state form of wasat even though it should be *wazat. One might think the allophony doesn't analogize becuase there are more inflections in the paradigms where the allophony doesn't apply, but I also have a verb wasax- "be loyal" which probably should be *wazax- in most inflections but it's simply not so.
Should also note that the language prefers to anticipatory/regressive assimilation and not progressive, so ns > ss but not zn > zz
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_V
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_{m n ŋ r l}
{ʡ ʔ}C ⭢ Cː / _
V{ħ h} ⭢ Vː / _C
VC{ʡ ʔ ħ h} ⭢ VːC / _
However given this it means voiced fricatives can't occur word-initially, word-finally, or post consonantally. It also means that voiceless fricatives cannot occur word-medially following a short vowel. Lastly, it means that geminate voiceless fricatives can exist but not geminate voiced fricatives.
So, I need some more ideas to allow voiceless fricatives to exist after short vowels, and to also allow voiced geminate fricatives. I'm not sure if I want voice fricatives in initial, post-consonantal, or final position.
The language is triconsonantal, so analogy may sometimes play a part, but generally allophony doesn't stick. For example, you have a verb rabad- "to guard" which becomes rabad-ni "guard-1sg"and rabad-ma "guard-2sg" but rabat-ta "guard-3sg". It doesn't mean the /d/ in the root will analogize to /t/ for the rest o the paradigm. However, you can have a word like wast-am "mana" which has the construct state form of wasat even though it should be *wazat. One might think the allophony doesn't analogize becuase there are more inflections in the paradigms where the allophony doesn't apply, but I also have a verb wasax- "be loyal" which probably should be *wazax- in most inflections but it's simply not so.
Should also note that the language prefers to anticipatory/regressive assimilation and not progressive, so ns > ss but not zn > zz
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Have you thought of having your proto-lang have long fricatives, and then (unconditionally or conditionally) shortening your long fricatives after the intervocalic voicing of short (but not long) fricatives, leaving both voiced and voiceless fricatives intervocalically even after short vowels?Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:43 am So I have it that the ancestor of Vrkhazhian doesn't have voiced fricatives, it only has voiceless fricatives. Next I have this set of sound changes:
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_V
f s ɬ ʃ x ⭢ v z ɮ ʒ ɣ / V_{m n ŋ r l}
{ʡ ʔ}C ⭢ Cː / _
V{ħ h} ⭢ Vː / _C
VC{ʡ ʔ ħ h} ⭢ VːC / _
However given this it means voiced fricatives can't occur word-initially, word-finally, or post consonantally. It also means that voiceless fricatives cannot occur word-medially following a short vowel. Lastly, it means that geminate voiceless fricatives can exist but not geminate voiced fricatives.
So, I need some more ideas to allow voiceless fricatives to exist after short vowels, and to also allow voiced geminate fricatives. I'm not sure if I want voice fricatives in initial, post-consonantal, or final position.
The language is triconsonantal, so analogy may sometimes play a part, but generally allophony doesn't stick. For example, you have a verb rabad- "to guard" which becomes rabad-ni "guard-1sg"and rabad-ma "guard-2sg" but rabat-ta "guard-3sg". It doesn't mean the /d/ in the root will analogize to /t/ for the rest o the paradigm. However, you can have a word like wast-am "mana" which has the construct state form of wasat even though it should be *wazat. One might think the allophony doesn't analogize becuase there are more inflections in the paradigms where the allophony doesn't apply, but I also have a verb wasax- "be loyal" which probably should be *wazax- in most inflections but it's simply not so.
Should also note that the language prefers to anticipatory/regressive assimilation and not progressive, so ns > ss but not zn > zz
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- linguistcat
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm
- Location: Utah, USA
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is there anything "fun"* I could do with phonemes like /mj mw nj nw ŋj ŋw/, especially at the ends of words? I do have ideas for word initial instances but I don't think they'd work well for medial or final contexts. I'd like to keep a high number of nasal and nasalized phones for this specific language, but I feel like they might not be as easily differentiated word finally especially with some being coarticulations that might make things fuzzier. I want to keep at least plain /m n ŋ/ separate, and I don't want the coarticulated forms to just become plain forms of any of those phonemes, but other than that I'm open to a lot.
* I know fun is subjective. I like less common sound changes that make sense together. I checked for sound changes for nasals like these and most of them collapse to the plain forms, or plain forms of other nasals. If we could avoid that without losing the nasal aspect completely I think I'd be happiest.
* I know fun is subjective. I like less common sound changes that make sense together. I checked for sound changes for nasals like these and most of them collapse to the plain forms, or plain forms of other nasals. If we could avoid that without losing the nasal aspect completely I think I'd be happiest.
A cat and a linguist.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Just decompose them to a semivowel and a nasal? Nʲ Nʷ → jN wN / V_#
Or if you're feeling rather more rebellious: Nʲ Nʷ → Ni Nu / _#
Or if you're feeling rather more rebellious: Nʲ Nʷ → Ni Nu / _#
/j/ <j>
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
- linguistcat
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 pm
- Location: Utah, USA
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Since they were mostly Ni Nu > Nʲ Nʷ; _# in the first place, I'm not going to reverse that but jN and wN could definitely work. And nasal stop clusters could work well intervocalically! Thank you both for the suggestions. I can also do some fun things with pitch accent that way.
A cat and a linguist.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
These sound and stress changes make sense?
Active Voice:
Negative Active Voice:
Applicative voice:
Negative Applicative Voice:
Graves indicate secondary stress while acute indicate primary stress.
Now I ask this because normally glides like /j w/ elide intervocalically, in coda, and word-finally. But if I do that then a lot of important gramamatical distinctions will be lost. I generally solve this by making the exception that they don't elide when they follow a stressed or long vowel.
Active Voice:
Code: Select all
ìt-ta-ynád-ma > ìt-tī-nád-ma
it-tà-ya-ynád-ma > it-tà-yī-nád-ma
Code: Select all
it-tà-ynad-máh-sa > it-tī̀-nad-mā́sa
ìt-ta-yà-ynad-máh-sa > ìt-ta-yī̀-nad-mā́sa
Code: Select all
it-tà-yannád-ma > it-tà-yannád-ma
ìt-ta-yà-yannád-ma > it-tī̀-yannád-ma
Code: Select all
ìt-ta-yànnad-máh-sa > ìt-ta-yànnad-mā́sa
it-tà-ya-yànnad-máh-sa > ìt-tī-yànnad-mā́sa
Now I ask this because normally glides like /j w/ elide intervocalically, in coda, and word-finally. But if I do that then a lot of important gramamatical distinctions will be lost. I generally solve this by making the exception that they don't elide when they follow a stressed or long vowel.