War in the Middle East, again

[Linguoboy]

On the other hand, you get students chanting ‘burn Tel Aviv to the ground’, or the protest organiser who said ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’. (And we all know who they mean by ‘Zionists’: the linked article makes it quite clear that they mean ‘anyone who is identifiably Jewish’.) Even in my own city of Sydney, we’ve seen young kids encouraged to call for ‘intifada’. Maybe, luckily, there was no antisemitism that you saw, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t simmering beneath the surface.

So calling for resistance to oppression is "antisemitic" when the oppressors happen to be Jewish?

The administration just announced that it had come to an agreement with the protesters which would require it to fully disclose its investments in return for dismantling the encampment. I personally went outside to hear the reaction from the students. One of them addressed the crowd over a loudspeaker, saying:

This encampment right here is about love and community and support. Myself, as a Jewish student had never felt so supported, so loved, so carried in my strength, so strong in my faith as I do here in the NU liberation zone.

So, yeah, absolutely brimming with barely-suppressed antisemitism.

(BTW, she also announced that the University had met a demand for a place for Jewish students to meet that wasn't as "notoriously Zionist" [her exact words] as Hillel House.)

[bradrn]

On the other hand, you get students chanting ‘burn Tel Aviv to the ground’, or the protest organiser who said ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’. (And we all know who they mean by ‘Zionists’: the linked article makes it quite clear that they mean ‘anyone who is identifiably Jewish’.) Even in my own city of Sydney, we’ve seen young kids encouraged to call for ‘intifada’. Maybe, luckily, there was no antisemitism that you saw, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t simmering beneath the surface.

So calling for resistance to oppression is "antisemitic" when the oppressors happen to be Jewish?

‘Burn Tel Aviv’ and ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’… those are ‘calling to resistance to oppression’?

(Please keep in mind that I am a Zionist, as is my entire family that I know of.)

[Torco]

you see, in most protests there are different people with different thinking. seems like most attendants, and the organizers and leaders or whatever, are not there out of antisemitism. that's what the jew guy there is saying, this isn't an antisemitic protest, even though we have some cunts (heheh) amogus.

[bradrn]

you see, in most protests there are different people with different thinking. seems like most attendants, and the organizers and leaders or whatever, are not there out of antisemitism. that's what the jew guy there is saying, this isn't an antisemitic protest, even though we have some cunts (heheh) amogus.

This is actually my opinion as well. Mentally, I’ve always thought of these movements as — let’s say — 90% basically decent people who happen to have gotten the wrong idea, and 10% diehard antisemitic people. The problem is that the actual antisemites people disproportionately seem to be the ones who organise and influence these movements. (As is indeed the case with the ‘death to Zionists’ person I quoted.)

[Raphael]

The points made in the back-and-forth between bradrn and Linguoboy illustrate fairly well why, while I absolutely don't support Israel, I'm not really interested in supporting the pro-Palestinian movement, either. No, I don't care if people think that that's the worst kind of bothsidism. When one side is committing mass murder right now, and the other side is calling for mass murder as soon as it is practically possible, I'm not going to support either side.

[Ares Land]

The points made in the back-and-forth between bradrn and Linguoboy illustrate fairly well why, while I absolutely don't support Israel, I'm not really interested in supporting the pro-Palestinian movement, either. No, I don't care if people think that that's the worst kind of bothsidism. When one side is committing mass murder right now, and the other side is calling for mass murder as soon as it is practically possible, I'm not going to support either side.

I think it's possible to support both and neither, to defend both Israel and Palestine, and both Israeli and Palestinians. It's also possible to oppose the current Israeli government, Hamas and Hezbollah.

In any case, that's my position.

[bradrn]

The points made in the back-and-forth between bradrn and Linguoboy illustrate fairly well why, while I absolutely don't support Israel, I'm not really interested in supporting the pro-Palestinian movement, either. No, I don't care if people think that that's the worst kind of bothsidism. When one side is committing mass murder right now, and the other side is calling for mass murder as soon as it is practically possible, I'm not going to support either side.

I think it's possible to support both and neither, to defend both Israel and Palestine, and both Israeli and Palestinians. It's also possible to oppose the current Israeli government, Hamas and Hezbollah.

In any case, that's my position.

And is my position too.

[WeepingElf]

The points made in the back-and-forth between bradrn and Linguoboy illustrate fairly well why, while I absolutely don't support Israel, I'm not really interested in supporting the pro-Palestinian movement, either. No, I don't care if people think that that's the worst kind of bothsidism. When one side is committing mass murder right now, and the other side is calling for mass murder as soon as it is practically possible, I'm not going to support either side.

I think it's possible to support both and neither, to defend both Israel and Palestine, and both Israeli and Palestinians. It's also possible to oppose the current Israeli government, Hamas and Hezbollah.

In any case, that's my position.

And is my position too.

And mine.

[Torco]

neutrality during a genocide (or even a systematic, race-based massacre that somehow doesn't amount to genocide because genocide is something only people one doesn't like can do) is quite... well, whatever, figure people's positions are for the most part made on this.

that being said, there's plenty of outright nazi talk from israelis, too, including arabs being animals, their extermination being desirable, etcetera... and, unlike with the anti-genocide movement, it seems not to be precisely on the fringes of it, and seems its only us far-left types that call them out on it, whereas when one arab goes "death to the guys killing us" they're immediately hitler.

[Linguoboy]

On the other hand, you get students chanting ‘burn Tel Aviv to the ground’, or the protest organiser who said ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’. (And we all know who they mean by ‘Zionists’: the linked article makes it quite clear that they mean ‘anyone who is identifiably Jewish’.) Even in my own city of Sydney, we’ve seen young kids encouraged to call for ‘intifada’. Maybe, luckily, there was no antisemitism that you saw, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t simmering beneath the surface.

So calling for resistance to oppression is "antisemitic" when the oppressors happen to be Jewish?

‘Burn Tel Aviv’ and ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’… those are ‘calling to resistance to oppression’?

I was referring specifically to "encouraging children to call for 'intifada' [i.e. resistance to Israeli oppression]". Sorry that wasn't clear enough. I should have quoted less of the original text.

And, yes, Raphael, frankly that is the worst kind of bothsidesism. There is a massacre going on and it's being perpetrated by Israel on the people of the West Bank and Gaza. Saying "but they would do the same given the chance" is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever.

[Raphael]

And, yes, Raphael, frankly that is the worst kind of bothsidesism. There is a massacre going on and it's being perpetrated by Israel on the people of the West Bank and Gaza. Saying "but they would do the same given the chance" is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever.

Yeah, Linguoboy, I get it, I'm a bad person because I'm not interested in supporting the cause of a movement that is calling for my murder. I would certainly be a much better person if I would look at a movement that wants to murder me, and also a lot of other people, and tell them that I'm fully on board with their agenda. As for "is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever", I'm not justifying anything, as I think I've made quite clear. Israel is a bunch of assheads as far as I'm concerned, and I would support their opponents, if I could do so with a clean conscience. Which I can't.

[Travis B.]

One thing to remember is that one must make a distinction between State of Israel and Hamas, on one hand, and the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, on the other hand. The former are both perpetrators (it just happens that the State of Israel has far more capacity to kill people than does Hamas), whereas the latter are both victims (it just happens that there are far more Palestinian victims than Israeli ones), even if plenty of both Israelis and Palestinians support what the State of Israel and Hamas, respectively, have been doing. Just because you sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people does not mean you support Hamas or what it did on October 7th, or because you sympathize with the victims and hostages of October 7th does not mean you support the State of Israel and what it is currently doing to the Palestinians.

[Linguoboy]

Yeah, Linguoboy, I get it, I'm a bad person because I'm not interested in supporting the cause of a movement that is calling for my murder. I would certainly be a much better person if I would look at a movement that wants to murder me, and also a lot of other people, and tell them that I'm fully on board with their agenda.

What movement is that? The movement to hold Israel accountable for war crimes? The BDS movement? The movement to recognise Palestinian statehood? Enlighten me.

As for "is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever", I'm not justifying anything, as I think I've made quite clear. Israel is a bunch of assheads as far as I'm concerned, and I would support their opponents, if I could do so with a clean conscience. Which I can't.

If there's anything at all I've learned from social justice debates on the ZBB, it's that the most important thing of all is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[keenir]

As for "is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever", I'm not justifying anything, as I think I've made quite clear. Israel is a bunch of assheads as far as I'm concerned, and I would support their opponents, if I could do so with a clean conscience. Which I can't.

If there's anything at all I've learned from social justice debates on the ZBB, it's that the most important thing of all is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

True; on the gripping hand, sometimes there simply is no good.

[Torco]

yes of course people are either with you or against you, Anakin. it's either wholesale support for the israeli regime exterminating the palestinians so it can sell the land to colonists in the new york stock exchange in the name of exterminating hamas and bringing back the hostages (presumably by the gallon) or being antisemitic enough to want you personally dead. this is not at all the sort of rhetoric that permits genocide to happen ¿

no one is saying anyone should defend hamas, tbh. [okay, *some* people are, like the houthis, but still]

As for "is literally the justification used by every committer of mass atrocities ever", I'm not justifying anything, as I think I've made quite clear. Israel is a bunch of assheads as far as I'm concerned, and I would support their opponents, if I could do so with a clean conscience. Which I can't.

see, despite what US politicians say, the 'israel stop your fucking genocide' movement is not identical with being a card-carrying member of hamas. see 'not in my name'. israel has more opponents than hamas and the irani government. you could support those.

[bradrn]

So calling for resistance to oppression is "antisemitic" when the oppressors happen to be Jewish?

‘Burn Tel Aviv’ and ‘Zionists don’t deserve to live’… those are ‘calling to resistance to oppression’?

I was referring specifically to "encouraging children to call for 'intifada' [i.e. resistance to Israeli oppression]". Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. I should have quoted less text.

Thank you for clarifying.

I should point out, though, that the term ‘intifada’ is generally associated with violent resistance to Israel.

(I feel like I see this kind of ambiguity a lot… pro-Palestinian people using terms which are widely associated with violence, then claiming that no, actually, they mean a non-violent interpretation of them. And maybe they genuinely do! But it would be easier to believe them if they could just refrain from connecting themselves with violence altogether.)

that being said, there's plenty of outright nazi talk from israelis, too, including arabs being animals, their extermination being desirable, etcetera... and, unlike with the anti-genocide movement, it seems not to be precisely on the fringes of it, and seems its only us far-left types that call them out on it, whereas when one arab goes "death to the guys killing us" they're immediately hitler.

How many millions of Israelis need to participate in protests before you stop saying things like this? I, personally, have called out this behaviour many times in this thread alone, and more elsewhere on the Internet. Perhaps I should just keep on repeating that Zionism is not Netanyahu-ism, in the hope that at some point it will register.

[Travis B.]

Thank you for clarifying.

I should point out, though, that the term ‘intifada’ is generally associated with violent resistance to Israel.

(I feel like I see this kind of ambiguity a lot… pro-Palestinian people using terms which are widely associated with violence, then claiming that no, actually, they mean a non-violent interpretation of them. And maybe they genuinely do! But it would be easier to believe them if they could just refrain from connecting themselves with violence altogether.)

Well it's not the pro-Palestinian people who have tried to turn slogans such as "from the river to the sea" (which simply is expressing support for a one-state solution) into being "anti-Semitic" if not eliminationist.

[bradrn]

Thank you for clarifying.

I should point out, though, that the term ‘intifada’ is generally associated with violent resistance to Israel.

(I feel like I see this kind of ambiguity a lot… pro-Palestinian people using terms which are widely associated with violence, then claiming that no, actually, they mean a non-violent interpretation of them. And maybe they genuinely do! But it would be easier to believe them if they could just refrain from connecting themselves with violence altogether.)

Well it's not the pro-Palestinian people who have tried to turn slogans such as "from the river to the sea" (which simply is expressing support for a one-state solution) into being "anti-Semitic" if not eliminationist.

If only… but sadly, this is wrong. One of the older documented versions of the phrase is min il-mayye la-l-mayye, Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye: ‘from the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab’. This is, of course, explicitly eliminationist.

[Raphael]

What movement is that? The movement to hold Israel accountable for war crimes? The BDS movement? The movement to recognise Palestinian statehood? Enlighten me.

The people chanting "Jew Jew cowardly pig, come out and fight alone!" (As I don't have to tell you, it rhymes in German.) Oh, and most of the major Palestinian armed organizations.

If there's anything at all I've learned from social justice debates on the ZBB, it's that the most important thing of all is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone is in favor of mass murder, that's not simply a minor flaw that keeps them from being "perfect"; it's a major flaw that keeps them from being any kind of "good".

[bradrn]

Meanwhile, in Sydney, texts from a teenager who carried out a terror stabbing a couple of weeks ago have revealed that who he really wanted to attack was ‘a bunch of Jews’ (though the person he eventually ended up stabbing was an Assyrian Orthodox bishop). The texts explicitly link this desire to Palestine.

This is honestly frightening for me. It means it’s already gotten long past the point where it’s an academic question of, ‘what are the underlying motivators of student protestors?’. Antisemitism rates have already gone through the roof, and now we have people in my own city expressing a desire to murder me over this conflict. Where does it end? When a Jew eventually is killed?

I’m not normally one to use strong language, but: !@#$% you, if you think it’s OK to make excuses for a movement which is calling for my death. You rightly push back against excuses for Israeli violence, so why not Palestinian violence too?

(Yes, I know many of the protesters are peaceful. What scares me are the small percentage which are not. Violent slogans are well-documented in these protests worldwide.)