War in the Middle East, again

[Ares Land]

I won't comment on the protests specifically; I don't know how it is on American campus so can't possibly comment. I have views on what's going on on French campus, but they're so tied to arcane parts of French politics they'll be insanely boring.

That being said, a few general comments...

Antisemitism is real, and more prevalent than you'd think and there is such a thing as dog-whistling, and finally, there are a lot of frankly disturbed people that are attracted to the Palestinian cause.
Believe, I have been there. There's something deeply unsettling in talking with what you think is a like-minded friend, and then they bring up 'international finance' or the Khazars or 'revelations about the Talmud.

Believe, I wish these things wouldn't exist, but they do, and they're why many people can view pro-Palestinian protests with some concern. 'From the river to the sea'? What exactly do they mean by that? How can I be sure? You know, antisemites -- and just like any kind of racist -- for obvious reasons, will never clearly state their views. That's why there are code words, ambiguous statements and dog whistles.

To clarify, I don't believe for a second that all Arabs are antisemites, or that all Palestinians are. (For that matter, the few people I met who turned out to be actually antisemitic were all white Christian French people.)

For that matter, I think that not condemning Hamas, for instance, as some politicians insist on doign, or finding excuses for them, is a bit weird. What is there not to condemn? Is there any hint that they're even doing anything even remotely useful for the Palestinian people? Is Hamas even good for anything but mass murder? Ditto with Hezbollah.

I am aware that you here a bunch of insane stuff on the Israeli side. That's why I do insist on how I really have no sympathy for Likud and Netanyahu (and, as it happens, most if not all the Israeli leadership.)

This is really not a 'with us or against us' kind of situation. There are people bent on genocide on both sides; this is not propaganda, that is fact that can be checked in a few minutes.
I think about the only way out is to appeal on whatever reason might be left on each side; and I think this goes through recognizing both Israeli and Palestinian belong there; recognizing the horrors of October 7th and the insanity of the whole settlement program, the treatment of Gaza before and after 10/7.

[Torco]

How many millions of Israelis need to participate in protests before you stop saying things like this? I, personally, have called out this behaviour many times in this thread alone, and more elsewhere on the Internet. Perhaps I should just keep on repeating that Zionism is not Netanyahu-ism, in the hope that at some point it will register.

Well, as long as there's significant outright nazi talk from israelis, I'm going to be of the opinion that there's outright nazi talk from israelis, which is what I said as can be seen in the quote (as opposed to 'all zionists are nazis and netanyahuists', which seems to be what you think I'm saying? in fairness, I do hold a distinct but perhaps similar position: zionism has inherently fash-enabling characteristics, such as, you know, the whole i want an ethnostate dealio, but you don't seem to be responding to this). like yeah, not all israelis, of course, but more of 'em (and more powerful ones) than the equivalent genocidal fringe lunatics I see in the western anti-israel movement, not to mention "but they're antisemitic" is not mere slander, it's actively being used as a media framing in the first world to justify crackdowns on student protests etcetera. like, netanyahuism isn't zionism, but the one zionist regime is ruled -and has been for a long time- by netanyahuism. the empire is netanhayuist. a lot of the EU is netanyahuist. and even many non-netanyahuist zionists are worryingly... either adjacent or tolerant of the whole thing.

[bradrn]

How many millions of Israelis need to participate in protests before you stop saying things like this? I, personally, have called out this behaviour many times in this thread alone, and more elsewhere on the Internet. Perhaps I should just keep on repeating that Zionism is not Netanyahu-ism, in the hope that at some point it will register.

Well, as long as there's significant outright nazi talk from israelis, I'm going to be of the opinion that there's outright nazi talk from israelis, which is what I said as can be seen in the quote (as opposed to 'all zionists are nazis and netanyahuists', which seems to be what you think I'm saying? in fairness, I do hold a distinct but perhaps similar position: zionism has inherently fash-enabling characteristics, such as, you know, the whole i want an ethnostate dealio, but you don't seem to be responding to this).

I was responding specifically to your assertion that ‘seems its only us far-left types that call [extremist Israelis] out on it’, by highlighting the many Israelis who are actively protesting against this kind of thing.

(And, yeah, I quite strongly disagree with the assertion that Zionism has any particularly strong connection to fascism, but we’ve been over all this before.)

"but they're antisemitic" is not mere slander, it's actively being used as a media framing in the first world to justify crackdowns on student protests etcetera.

On this point, it’s worth highlighting the Australian student protests, which — at least so far — have been substantially less violent than the American ones. (There was the whole ‘kids calling for intifada’ thing, but that seems to have been an isolated incident.) Not coincidentally, there also haven’t been any major crackdowns to remove them. Even I wouldn’t encourage a crackdown on them, notwithstanding my disagreements with what they advocate. It all suggests to me that the opposition to American student protests is based mostly on their appalling behaviour, not on any absolute equation of anti-Zionism to antisemitism.

[Torco]

yeah, i guess US rulers never make decisions on what protests to crack down on based on which military agendas they want to pursue ¿

[Emily]

How many millions of Israelis need to participate in protests before you stop saying things like this? I, personally, have called out this behaviour many times in this thread alone, and more elsewhere on the Internet. Perhaps I should just keep on repeating that Zionism is not Netanyahu-ism, in the hope that at some point it will register.

Well, as long as there's significant outright nazi talk from israelis, I'm going to be of the opinion that there's outright nazi talk from israelis, which is what I said as can be seen in the quote (as opposed to 'all zionists are nazis and netanyahuists', which seems to be what you think I'm saying? in fairness, I do hold a distinct but perhaps similar position: zionism has inherently fash-enabling characteristics, such as, you know, the whole i want an ethnostate dealio, but you don't seem to be responding to this).

I was responding specifically to your assertion that ‘seems its only us far-left types that call [extremist Israelis] out on it’, by highlighting the many Israelis who are actively protesting against this kind of thing.

(And, yeah, I quite strongly disagree with the assertion that Zionism has any particularly strong connection to fascism, but we’ve been over all this before.)

"but they're antisemitic" is not mere slander, it's actively being used as a media framing in the first world to justify crackdowns on student protests etcetera.

On this point, it’s worth highlighting the Australian student protests, which — at least so far — have been substantially less violent than the American ones. (There was the whole ‘kids calling for intifada’ thing, but that seems to have been an isolated incident.) Not coincidentally, there also haven’t been any major crackdowns to remove them. Even I wouldn’t encourage a crackdown on them, notwithstanding my disagreements with what they advocate. It all suggests to me that the opposition to American student protests is based mostly on their appalling behaviour, not on any absolute equation of anti-Zionism to antisemitism.

the violence in the US demonstrations has been almost entirely instigated by zionists and police, not the protesters themselves, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Travis B.]

There's been (often masked) Zionists actively attacking encampments here in the US, as Emily states.

[bradrn]

the violence in the US demonstrations has been almost entirely instigated by zionists and police, not the protesters themselves, what the fuck are you talking about?

I’m talking about, for instance, the way that they forcibly occupied a university building. In addition to all the violence I’ve already mentioned in my previous posts, which you clearly didn’t read.

I am aware that there were Jewish groups which instigated violence. I condemn them in the strongest possible terms. They bring shame not only on themselves, but on the entirety of the Jewish people. It doesn’t make their opponents saints, though. Quite the contrary: they’re both quite as bad as each other.

(It’s curious, the way that people here keep on trying to excuse and minimise the well-reported violence amongst pro-Palestinian protesters. Meanwhile, reports of violence from pro-Israeli groups are instantly picked up and repeated here without so much as citing the source. At least pretend to be even-handed, please.)

[Emily]

I'm talking about, for instance, the way that they forcibly occupied a university building.

oh my god they trespassed in a building on their own college campus!!! how violent!!!!! this is exactly the same as groups of thugs tear-gassing students and shooting fireworks into crowds of unarmed people, why doesn't anyone see that "they're both quite as bad as each other"

In addition to all the violence I’ve already mentioned in my previous posts, which you clearly didn’t read.

ok, fair enough, i hadn't. so i just did this and the closest thing to "violence" you brought up by protesters at american universities were not acts of physical violence but simply a pair of statements from a single news article—one of which was made online months before the protests started, and the other was made in response to someone holding an israeli flag trying to force their way into the encampment. we can argue about the moral acceptability of these statements all we want, but they are not the same as physical violent assaults being carried out by israel supporters and by the police. the american pro-palestine protesters are not committing acts of violence at rates far greater than the australian ones (or, as far as i can see, at all). harsher crackdowns on the former vs the latter are political, not genuine responses to materially different characters of the protests themselves

[bradrn]

In addition to all the violence I’ve already mentioned in my previous posts, which you clearly didn’t read.

ok, fair enough, i hadn't. so i just did this and the closest thing to "violence" you brought up by protesters at american universities were not acts of physical violence but simply a pair of statements from a single news article—one of which was made online months before the protests started, and the other was made in response to someone holding an israeli flag trying to force their way into the encampment. we can argue about the moral acceptability of these statements all we want, but they are not the same as physical violent assaults being carried out by israel supporters and by the police.

You’re right, they’re not. And when I look through news articles, it seems that there are, in fact, few to no instances of actual violence by pro-Palestinian protests. (Although there’s plenty hateful slogans, incitement to violence and property damage, which in my view is bad enough.)

Incidentally… I find it quite concerning to see how many people here have made excuses for someone who literally said that I and my family should be killed. Not a single person here has bothered to condemn those remarks. (Except, indirectly, Ares Land.) I don’t like to think bad things of people, but it’s extremely difficult for me to escape the conclusion that you’re all being far more lenient with pro-Palestinian protesters than pro-Israeli protesters.

Let’s be clear here: it doesn’t matter if it was ‘made online months before the protests started’: that just means people had months to notice, including the university officials present at the time of speaking. And, not only did they not notice, they actively allowed this person to become the leader of the protests. And it’s not just this person: antisemitic rhetoric is widespread, both in these protests and throughout the wider community. If we do not all help to combat it, the consequences could be disastrous. I already mentioned the recent terrorist attack in Sydney, and the inescapable worry is: ‘will I be next’?

[Emily]

the palestinian people are *actually being mass murdered* in an ongoing genocide. the genocide or forced removal of palestinians are the only two possible (obviously not mutually exclusive) end results of the ideology of zionism holding and keeping state power. i don't agree with someone calling for all zionists to be killed, but it is perfectly understandable why someone whose people are being massacred would speak in anger against those who subscribe to the ideology that drives that massacre. violence, or the call to violence, against an oppressor by a member of the people it is oppressing is fundamentally, qualitatively different from the opposite

[keenir]

the palestinian people are *actually being mass murdered* in an ongoing genocide. the genocide or forced removal of palestinians are the only two possible (obviously not mutually exclusive) end results of the ideology of zionism holding and keeping state power. i don't agree with someone calling for all zionists to be killed, but it is perfectly understandable why someone whose people are being massacred would speak in anger against those who subscribe to the ideology that drives that massacre. violence, or the call to violence, against an oppressor by a member of the people it is oppressing is fundamentally, qualitatively different from the opposite

if memory serves, Bradrn has repeatedly pointed out not being a Zionist...thats kinda the point being made in rebuttal to your points.

[bradrn]

it is perfectly understandable why someone whose people are being massacred would speak in anger against those who subscribe to the ideology that drives that massacre. violence, or the call to violence, against an oppressor by a member of the people it is oppressing is fundamentally, qualitatively different from the opposite

Leaving aside my opinion that it’s not a genocide, this is an attitude I fundamentally disagree with. Calling for violence is wrong, full stop, unless it’s in self-defence^†. Doesn’t matter if it’s the oppressed calling against the oppressor, or vice versa. It does nothing to help anyone in any way whatsoever. It may be understandable, but it’s not something I can excuse or tolerate.

^† I’m including this footnote because I’m sure people will question my support of Israel here. Back when I fully supported the war against Hamas, that was when it looked like pure self-defence against Hamas, which committed the atrocities on October 7 and threatened to commit them again. I still support Israel’s war aims, but now I have serious questions about whether the continued war helps to achieve them or not, and whether the horrific suffering could have been avoided if Israel had behaved more morally.

if memory serves, Bradrn has repeatedly pointed out not being a Zionist...thats kinda the point being made in rebuttal to your points.

I don’t understand what you mean here. I most certainly consider myself a Zionist.

[Emily]

it is perfectly understandable why someone whose people are being massacred would speak in anger against those who subscribe to the ideology that drives that massacre. violence, or the call to violence, against an oppressor by a member of the people it is oppressing is fundamentally, qualitatively different from the opposite

Leaving aside my opinion that it’s not a genocide, this is an attitude I fundamentally disagree with. Calling for violence is wrong, full stop, unless it’s in self-defence^†. Doesn’t matter if it’s the oppressed calling against the oppressor, or vice versa. It does nothing to help anyone in any way whatsoever. It may be understandable, but it’s not something I can excuse or tolerate.

^† I’m including this footnote because I’m sure people will question my support of Israel here. Back when I fully supported the war against Hamas, that was when it looked like pure self-defence against Hamas, which committed the atrocities on October 7 and threatened to commit them again. I still support Israel’s war aims, but now I have serious questions about whether the continued war helps to achieve them or not, and whether the horrific suffering could have been avoided if Israel had behaved more morally.

violence of the oppressed against the oppressor is self defense

[Emily]

i'm out, reading the ephemera forum is the zbb equivalent of reading youtube comments

[Ares Land]

I've said so before, but why not say so again? "Zionism" is, also, an antisemitic dog-whistle. So is, by the way, 'from the river to the sea.' It's hard to hear 'death to all Zionists' without hearing something else.
I know people here don't mean either the word or the slogan that way... But, you know, just pointing out that there are people out there who mean a certain particular thing.

I know you folks probably don't believe me, and you know, it's fine. But I'd like to point out two things:

1) Antisemitism is a reality, and there is plenty of it out there. Antisemites don't go around shouting angry things in German anymore; you might learn a thing or two by checking out what they are actually saying. (if you don't want to listen to them, and I don't blame you, here it is: Zionist this and Zionist that.)
2) Related to point 1). If we learned something over the last ten years, it's that when women complain about sexism and sexual assault, you believe them (and in fact the reality is probably far worse.) Now, you know what? When Jews mention antisemitism, you believe them.

I don't know the particulars of that specific incident, so maybe it was fine for some reason or other... But personally, I'm very inclined to think it was antisemitic in character.

[bradrn]

2) Related to point 1). If we learned something over the last ten years, it's that when women complain about sexism and sexual assault, you believe them (and in fact the reality is probably far worse.) Now, you know what? When Jews mention antisemitism, you believe them.

I appreciate your support, but I actually don’t think this is quite the right analogy. I’m not asking for people’s belief.

The problem with rape trials etc. is that they so often come down to ‘he said / she said’. This is why belief is such a big issue: people so often dismiss the ‘she said’ side of it, while believing what ‘he said’ without question. ‘Believe women’ is about demolishing that bias, so that more rapists are held accountable.

With antisemitism, there’s something more to it. All the incidents we’re talking about are out in the open, and everyone can fully see what happened. There’s no need for people to believe what I say, because they can verify it immediately. The problem is, they’re not recognising it as antisemitism at all — or, worse, actively sympathising with the perpetrator. It’s a very different sort of problem. If you want to compare it to sexism, it’s more like, say, sharing a video of a catcall and having people say, ‘yeah, she looks pretty, he’s justified in doing that’.

[keenir]

if memory serves, Bradrn has repeatedly pointed out not being a Zionist...thats kinda the point being made in rebuttal to your points.

I don’t understand what you mean here. I most certainly consider myself a Zionist.

Sorry...when i was typing, I couldn't recall if you were not a Zionist, or a Zionist not a Netanyus(sp)ist

[bradrn]

if memory serves, Bradrn has repeatedly pointed out not being a Zionist...thats kinda the point being made in rebuttal to your points.

I don’t understand what you mean here. I most certainly consider myself a Zionist.

Sorry...when i was typing, I couldn't recall if you were not a Zionist, or a Zionist not a Netanyus(sp)ist

The latter. I am a Zionist who greatly dislikes Netanyahu (like many of the other Zionists I know).

[Torco]

Emily is correct.

the violence in the US demonstrations has been almost entirely instigated by zionists and police, not the protesters themselves, what the fuck are you talking about?

I’m talking about, for instance, the way that they forcibly occupied a university building. In addition to all the violence I’ve already mentioned in my previous posts, which you clearly didn’t read.

come on, man, this is reaching talking point on MSM levels. taking over classrooms etcetera is a staple of student protests since forever: and for good reason, you get the shit beaten out of you if you don't, as *everyone* knows. every protest I've been, from like high school to uni, to every student protest I've seen, to all the ones I've seen on TV in other countries, they all do this! and *this is how you get results*, this is how you pressure "the man", this is how you protest, jesus! how do you think we got vacations, the 40 hour week, the vote for women, laws against wage theft, the criminalization of spousal rape, unemployment benefits, pensions, public healthcare, and much, much more? do you think we got it by politely asking in our inside voices outside the relevant government offices, previous scheduling and permission with the city authorities adequately asked for by writing through the appriate channels? I've tried to be chill but I mean... honestly now, are we just throwing out *protests*? is the honor of proyect of the jewish race's gott-gegeben lebensraum really *that* important... that you'd sell out the entire tradition of the protest?

what else is a student protest going to do, huh? especially when the cops come and gas and beat people etcetera: where are you going to take care of the wounded? where are they going to rest and recover after being tear gassed for exactly no reason, to coordinate, to store the food and the water, to recover from the chemical weapons and the beatings, to account for who was taken by the cops, to write their names down (cause you need to make sure no one disappears: cops disappear people, in case you didn't know, *everywhere*)... it's like listening to those technocrats from the instagram "billionaire thinking" podcasts! if students just protest in the street besides outside the school they'll get violently dispersed within, what, an hour? they just send an undercover cop, have him burn something, and boom, they have their excuse. literally anyone who was been to any student protest for any reason knows this.

I've said so before, but why not say so again? "Zionism" is, also, an antisemitic dog-whistle. So is, by the way, 'from the river to the sea.' It's hard to hear 'death to all Zionists' without hearing something else.

zionism is an antisemitic dog-whistle? it's your own word, though. what are you even talking about? "from the river to the sea" is just the territory that wasn't israel: if you're against israel existing, then of course you want there not to be an israel in the region where there is an israel (i.e. from the river to the sea, you know, the region where there ougthn't be the ethnostate that currently there is there) Also, it's a protest. people shout 'death to rapists' in protests, and no one dishonestly pretends like that means feminists are, each one of them, mass murderers. sure, it's not great tactics, but fuck... also, are we really pretending protests don't have infiltrated people there to fuck the optics and give people clips to cherrypick? this is just the old canard where everything that is not "yay israel keep up the genocide of a semitic people" is antisemitic. it's demential.

2) Related to point 1). If we learned something over the last ten years, it's that when women complain about sexism and sexual assault, you believe them (and in fact the reality is probably far worse.) Now, you know what? When Jews mention antisemitism, you believe them.

....you can't make this up. I hadn't even read this part when i wrote the above. right. everything you say is antisemitism, else i'm antisemitic. in addition, opposing the genocide of certain semites is antisemitic. well, if that's all correct guess i'm antisemitic. it's not tho.

[bradrn]

the violence in the US demonstrations has been almost entirely instigated by zionists and police, not the protesters themselves, what the fuck are you talking about?

I’m talking about, for instance, the way that they forcibly occupied a university building. In addition to all the violence I’ve already mentioned in my previous posts, which you clearly didn’t read.

come on, man, this is reaching talking point on MSM levels. taking over classrooms etcetera is a staple of student protests since forever […]

When did I ever deny this? I said, ‘this protest is violent in this way’. Your response here is, ‘many protests have been violent in this way’. Which may be true, but it doesn’t negate my point.

I've said so before, but why not say so again? "Zionism" is, also, an antisemitic dog-whistle. So is, by the way, 'from the river to the sea.' It's hard to hear 'death to all Zionists' without hearing something else.

zionism is an antisemitic dog-whistle? it's your own word, though. what are you even talking about?

I would say rather that ‘Zionist’ can be used as an antisemitic dog-whistle. Which is entirely true. When you say ‘Zionist’, I have no doubt that you do, genuinely, mean Zionist, and perhaps some of the more reasonable protesters understand this as well. But there’s plenty of people around who have targeted random Jews purely for being ‘Zionists’.

also, are we really pretending protests don't have infiltrated people there to fuck the optics and give people clips to cherrypick? this is just the old canard where everything that is not "yay israel keep up the genocide of a semitic people" is antisemitic. it's demential.

The major difference, I feel, is that in other protests the purported ‘infiltrators’ aren’t usually the ones leading the protests. Here, it looks like the leaders are the ones who are virulently antisemitic, and that ends up influencing the more genuine activists who join the protest as individuals.

2) Related to point 1). If we learned something over the last ten years, it's that when women complain about sexism and sexual assault, you believe them (and in fact the reality is probably far worse.) Now, you know what? When Jews mention antisemitism, you believe them.

....you can't make this up. I hadn't even read this part when i wrote the above. right. everything you say is antisemitism, else i'm antisemitic. in addition, opposing the genocide of certain semites is antisemitic. well, if that's all correct guess i'm antisemitic. it's not tho.

Yeah, I noted my objection to this point already. Personally, I think that you are not antisemitic. Only that many people, in this discussion and elsewhere, sometimes don’t recognise antisemitism for what it is.