Elections in various countries

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Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Ares Land »

xxx wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:11 am the left has largely discredited itself, either by being particularly social-liberalist without the social (to the point of becoming Macronists),
or by being obsessed with a doctrinal social re-engineering which has become that of minorities against the majority, like an inverted universalism
(to the point that its traditional electorate, the weakest citizens, no longer knows which way to turn)
which opens the way to those who promise protection to the weakest citizens, they just have to believe it...
The sorry state of the left is one thing. But the left is not responsible for the current situation.

The people responsible are voters who deliberately chose to vote for a racist party. Who cares how good their excuses are?
Why are we still finding excuses for folks who are basically Nazi voters.

I don't believe tales about supposedly 'lost' left-wingers desperately turning for the RN. Everybody knows what the RN is; if they vote for them they're racist and not a little fascist either.
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xxx
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Re: Elections in various countries

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the choice of voters is the only democratic thing...

in a representative democracy, this is not demand
but offer who is responsible for the possible choice...

the cursor between freedom and security is not a racist problem
or an alternative leftism versus fascism,
especially when a need arises and no solution is proposed,
the fault is with the political parties...
Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Ares Land »

Not really in the mood to debate, so okay, if you say so. Soon people will get a lot more "security" and "solutions" than they bargained for, anyway.
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doctor shark
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Re: Elections in various countries

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Ares Land wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:14 am I mean, it's a very risky bet, and his ego has played no small part in the decision, that's a certainty. But he probably would have run into trouble later this year -- it's likely the budget vote would have let to a political impact so the decision to hold the inevitable elections at a convenient time makes a bit of sense.
Though as you say, the likely result is either a divided assembly as we have now or an outright RN victory.
Given the fact Macron hasn't had a cooperative majority in the National Assembly starting from... uh, the last parliamentary election, not to mention the difficulty they've had in enacting their program, I've seen that speculation of a snap election was rife; turned out that the EU parliamentary election was the trigger. The last time a snap election was called in France (in 1997) also backfired spectacularly, but that was with a somewhat different motivation (apparently, Chirac wanted to catch the opposition off-guard by calling the election a year early). In that sense, it's probably ego, but not hubris like Chirac.

That said, there's a completely different electoral system at play in the parliamentary election, like you said: EU parliamentary elections are purely proportional, while the National Assembly elections use a two-round system in single-member constituencies, and turnout at national elections often tends to be higher (as is the case in the Netherlands). We saw the effect of this in 2022, where NUPÉS and Renaissance had close to the same fraction of the popular vote, but Renaissance ended up with almost double the number of seats. Whether or not RN can overcome a united resistance is hard to tell... but that resistance has to be there.
Ares Land wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:03 am The story is similar in many European countries. I think it came a bit earlier in France, and fairly later on in Germany (though we've been hearing about the AfD for about a decade.)
Same here in the Netherlands: in 2002, there was the LPF (Lijst Pim Fortuyn), and since 2006, there's been the PVV (Partij voor Vrijheid) with a spate of other far-right parties popping up (FVD, BVNL, JA21, BBB...), so PVV's success both in the EU election and in the national election last November really aren't surprising. But the proportional system in play in Tulipland generally means that no party ends up with an overwhelming share of seats in the House of Representatives, and that's not quite the case in France.
Ryusenshi wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:25 am Yes. The Assembly is elected for five years, so in theory, the next legislative elections will be in 2029.

In practice, in 2027, if the newly-elected President doesn't have a majority in the Assembly, their first decision will be to dissolve it and call for new legislative elections.

If it seems terribly unfair that the President can dissolve the Assembly but can't be removed by it... well, that's because it is.
Very true. It might also be worth noting that the President of France has a very limited veto power, unlike the US president, so the power to dissolve the National Assembly possibly is the "check" here. (It's maybe comparable to the Australian system, where the Senate has an unlimited power to block legislation... so, to get past the Senate, there's the power to dissolve both houses of Parliament simultaneously for a snap election.)

There also apparently is an impeachment procedure in France (Article 68 of the Constitution), but I have no idea if it's ever been considered or what the conditions are.


Results in the Nether Regions: PVV made gains in terms of EU parliamentary seats (now on 6 out of the 31 seats, up from 1), but the top party remains the Green–Labor alliance (8 seats, a loss of 1 seat). Both parties are spinning this as a win, unsurprisingly. They're also finalizing the coalition agreement, coincidentally, which took almost eight months after the last election: it's a PVV-VVD (party of the outgoing Prime Minister)-NSC-BBB government, but NSC insisted that they would only join an extra-parliamentary cabinet, so it's made the negotiations a bit strange. Though this at least means there won't be a Prime Minister Wilders...
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malloc
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Re: Elections in various countries

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«Alors c'est comment liberté meurt, avec applaudissements tonitruants.»
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Re: Elections in various countries

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doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:16 am but NSC insisted that they would only join an extra-parliamentary cabinet, so it's made the negotiations a bit strange. Though this at least means there won't be a Prime Minister Wilders...
Huh? How does that work?
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Ryusenshi
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Ryusenshi »

doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:16 am There also apparently is an impeachment procedure in France (Article 68 of the Constitution), but I have no idea if it's ever been considered or what the conditions are.
It has never been used so far. The conditions are really high: it can only be applied in case of "a breach of his duties patently incompatible with his continuing in office". Very different from the US, where impeachment proceedings are now a political tool like any other.
malloc wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:45 am «Alors c'est comment liberté meurt, avec applaudissements tonitruants.»
« C'est comment » sounds weird, you should say « c'est comme ça que » ou « voici comment ». Also, you should put an article before « liberté » and « applaudissements ». Let's say: « Alors voici comment la liberté meurt, avec des applaudissements tonitruants. »

Official dub: «  Ainsi s'éteint la liberté... Sous une pluie d'applaudissements. »
doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:16 am That said, there's a completely different electoral system at play in the parliamentary election, like you said: EU parliamentary elections are purely proportional, while the National Assembly elections use a two-round system in single-member constituencies, and turnout at national elections often tends to be higher (as is the case in the Netherlands).
True. EU elections have low turnout, which tends to favor the extremes: the Greens often do decently, when they're practically non-existent in national elections. Also, in two-round systems, people will rally behind "anyone who isn't the far-right", which doesn't work in a single-round proportional system.
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Re: Elections in various countries

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Raphael wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:11 pm
doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:16 am but NSC insisted that they would only join an extra-parliamentary cabinet, so it's made the negotiations a bit strange. Though this at least means there won't be a Prime Minister Wilders...
Huh? How does that work?
Pretty much, the parties still get to pick the minister for the cabinet, but the cabinet ministers can't come from the members of Parliament (as would be traditional in Dutch cabinets). The PM has been designated (a guy named Hendrikus "Dick" Schoof, an independent politician formerly from the Labor party), and the cabinet members have apparently been divided out amongst the coalition member parties, but the exact cabinet is yet to be announced.
Ryusenshi wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:52 pm True. EU elections have low turnout, which tends to favor the extremes: the Greens often do decently, when they're practically non-existent in national elections. Also, in two-round systems, people will rally behind "anyone who isn't the far-right", which doesn't work in a single-round proportional system.
Very true. And the other thing here is that, unlike the Presidential elections and Parliamentary elections going back-to-back, there isn't that situation here, so...


I was also quite surprised at how soon the election is to be held, but, apparently, it's required under the Constitution (Article 12) that the snap election must happen between 20 and 40 days of the dissolution of parliament.
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Raphael
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Raphael »

doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:41 pm
Raphael wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:11 pm
doctor shark wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:16 am but NSC insisted that they would only join an extra-parliamentary cabinet, so it's made the negotiations a bit strange. Though this at least means there won't be a Prime Minister Wilders...
Huh? How does that work?
Pretty much, the parties still get to pick the minister for the cabinet, but the cabinet ministers can't come from the members of Parliament (as would be traditional in Dutch cabinets). The PM has been designated (a guy named Hendrikus "Dick" Schoof, an independent politician formerly from the Labor party), and the cabinet members have apparently been divided out amongst the coalition member parties, but the exact cabinet is yet to be announced.
Ah, thank you!
Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Ares Land »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:25 am Ideally, all left wing parties will finally get their act together, unite, and nominate a single candidate in each consistuency. I'd also like one billion dollars, and a unicorn. And, believe me, I have a way higher chance of getting a unicorn.
They actually announced such an alliance last night; they call it 'Front Populaire' (which has both 1930s and positive connotations in left-wing politics, so nice choice here.)
So I'm expecting a unicorn farting rainbows any time now.

More seriously, though, I'll believe it when I see the ballots. There's still time for a lot of major fuck ups, but there is some hope.
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xxx
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by xxx »

the electoral manipulation are on the march,
to avoid asking the real questions,
and to keep their seats,
and continue to fleece their voters...

how to use black-and-white visions
to meet grayscale demands
or even multicolored needs...
Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

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xxx wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:10 am the electoral manipulation are on the march,
to avoid asking the real questions,
and to keep their seats,
and continue to fleece their voters...

how to use black-and-white visions
to meet grayscale demands
or even multicolored needs...
The haikus are getting, really, really annoying. If you want to talk, then please be clear about what your point is.
If one side is definitely fleecing the voters, though, it's the far right.
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by xxx »

Facing reality with blinders on is no way to deal with it,
and as long as political parties operate on a purely ideological basis,
nothing good will come of it...

it's not an error in the results,
there is a general malaise,
if we don't respond to it with the same old antiphons,
and sweep them under the carpet,
we risk the worst...
in that macron is no fool,

but nobody understands the urgency,
and continues with the same moldy recipes...
the left is becoming reactionary and caricaturing its values,
the right is becoming progressive, at the price of an even riskier social reengineering...
Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

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What do you mean by "reality" and "general malaise"?

If you mean inflation, growing poverty, climate change... I can agree with that.

If by that you mean the 'migrant crisis' or something similar... then your position doesn't make sense. What's the logic there? Quick, let's pass fascist laws before the RN... passes fascist laws.

Fundamentally, I just can't agree with racism. I (and plenty of people on the left) think that the idea of a 'migrant crisis' is already the beginnings of racism. And there's nothing good down that path.
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Re: Elections in various countries

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you just have to read the election results without blinders
to see where the uneasiness lies,
denying the migration crisis
borders on ideological schizophrenia
and prevents finding left-wing solutions...
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Re: Elections in various countries

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Ares Land wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:32 am The haikus are getting, really, really annoying.
What, only now? Clearly you have a lot more tolerance than I do…
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Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

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bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:13 am
Ares Land wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:32 am The haikus are getting, really, really annoying.
What, only now? Clearly you have a lot more tolerance than I do…
To be perfectly honest, it's not xxx's haikus that really bothers me. What bothers me is that he's a fascist.
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Re: Elections in various countries

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Ares Land wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:41 am They actually announced such an alliance last night; they call it 'Front Populaire' (which has both 1930s and positive connotations in left-wing politics, so nice choice here.)
So I'm expecting a unicorn farting rainbows any time now.

More seriously, though, I'll believe it when I see the ballots. There's still time for a lot of major fuck ups, but there is some hope.
Same. And I'll also believe things when I see the first-round results.
bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:13 am
Ares Land wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:32 am The haikus are getting, really, really annoying.
What, only now? Clearly you have a lot more tolerance than I do…
This reminds me of a character in my brother's latest bodice ripper self-published RPG, where one of the throw-away enemies speaks only in insulting haiku.
Another speaks in insulting rhyming couplets, another in "owo" speak, another has an orgasmic giggle, there's a pair who share both inappropriate names and a brain cell between them...
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by xxx »

once again, there is no problem,
the voters are wrong,
they are certainly fascist,
we must continue as usual...
Ares Land
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Re: Elections in various countries

Post by Ares Land »

xxx wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:38 am once again, there is no problem,
the voters are wrong,
they are certainly fascist,
we must continue as usual...
Look, voters can be wrong. The German voters were wrong in 1933, weren't they?

Hopefully this is not 1933 Germany... then again who knows how bad things can get now.
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