What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
14 million people speak Zulu. 10 million speak Xhosa. 2 million speak Swazi, 1 million speak Ndebele, 200,000 speak Khoekhoe. When I visited family in South Africa last year, I overheard plenty of people talking in languages with clicks.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:14 pm It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks.
I don’t know what you mean by this.we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:14 pm What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
My guess is that he just doesn’t have a huge amount of linguistic knowledge. We all have to start somewhere, after all.Darren wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:02 pmI'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:14 pm What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I'm relying on stereotypes, meaning the latter. Trolls are fairytale creatures, attached conceptually to giants.Darren wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:02 pmI'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:14 pm What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
Practice makes perfect. Also it still is objective reality that in all those languages you referenced that including clicks causes all of their consonant inventories to explode in an uncontrolled way.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I’m not going to bother with this any more. I don’t have the energy for discussions with someone who isn’t interested in having a good-faith conversation.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
Hmm... a little judgmental, are we? Faith often stirrs judgment. Also exhaustion ("I don't have the energy") isn't a solution to anything.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
You have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:31 pm"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I gave up on thinking long ago! You should try it too.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:31 pm"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
Why is it my responsibility to anticipate ahead of time what makes sense and what doesn't? I'm not a mind-reader like James Randi, am I? Rather, if something written doesn't make sense, is it not your responsibility to ask me questions?Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:57 pmYou have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:31 pm"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
It should be the responsibility of a moderator to knock this nonsense on the head.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:04 amWhy is it my responsibility to anticipate ahead of time what makes sense and what doesn't? I'm not a mind-reader like James Randi, am I? Rather, if something written doesn't make sense, is it not your responsibility to ask me questions?Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:57 pmYou have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:31 pm
"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.
Unsuccessfully conlanging since 1999.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
There's a lot of blame to go around.
It's not helpful for people to be calling a newbie crazy or a troll. If the dude's project doesn't interest you, leave it alone.
On the other hand, this
was flagged as antisemitism, and I advise HolyKnowing to stay well away from that. Blaming a language for anything is just foolish, but bigotry is against the house rules.HolyKnowing wrote:we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.
In short, both sides, try to be civil. Longtimers, remember you had to learn things for the first time once; HolyKnowing, review the guidelines for new people in the Ephemera subforum.
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
Well, he did openly admit to trolling (insofar as that post makes much sense at all). I’m happy to talk to people who simply don’t have much linguistic knowledge: but I have no interest in trying to have a civil conversation with someone who won’t engage in good faith.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
While my comments may have been a bit strident, it is one thing to be a newbie (we have had plenty here, most not like HolyKnowing thankfully), it is another thing to be an arrogant newbie who steadfastly refuses to listen to more seasoned voices and claims that they are being oppressed when others point out things that don't make sense.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:24 am The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
You might want to approach the problem from the other direction and ask what is the *least* optimal phonological spread possible, and what "least optimal" actually means in this context. What is the least optimal spread of dots inside a circle, for example?
Self-referential signatures are for people too boring to come up with more interesting alternatives.
Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
To me, the optimally-small phoneme set is /p t k m n s~ʃ~h r~ɾ~ɺ~l w~ʋ~v j~ʝ/ for consonants and /a i~e u~o/ for vowels...Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:31 pmI think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:24 am The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?
I think you found optimum minimum correctly. Nicely done! Muy bueno!Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:11 pmTo me, the optimally-small phoneme set is /p t k m n s~ʃ~h r~ɾ~ɺ~l w~ʋ~v j~ʝ/ for consonants and /a i~e u~o/ for vowels...Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 2:31 pmI think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.HolyKnowing wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:24 am The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?
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