Conlang fluency thread

Conworlds and conlangs
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jal
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by jal »

Imralu wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:05 pmIndeed, but I am talking about the difference between "repariert werden" and "repariert sein" which is as big a difference as "die" vs "be dead".
I don't find those to differ all that much. It's progressive vs. stative. "being repaired" vs. "having been repaired" (transitive) or "dying" vs. "be dead".
Of course, "be dead" is basically the same as "have died" if your language has a clear perfect
Even if it hasn't. This is an aspectual difference for sure, but whether that's meaningful depends on the language.
Isn't that used for cases where it's a passive form? For example "sang" is "sing.PST" because it is the past form of "sing" and it's difficult to clearly point out the specific past tense morpheme since it's formed by ablaut.
That's just semantics. "went" is still "go.PST", even though it's diachronically from a different root, like "is" is still "be.3s".
Tém is not a passive form of a word meaning "eat". It's a root word.
If there's a word meaning "be eaten" and a word meaning "eat", and the speakers of the language both associate it with the same action, they're definitely two sides of the same medal. One can be a suppletive form of another, or there can be two independent roots, but just because "went" is a different word from "go", you shouldn't analyse it as being two totally different words. And no language would have two completely different roots for every verb in the language. That's just not how our mental model works (of course, when it's aliens, you can get away with everything, though I'd still find it highly unlikely).


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Travis B.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by Travis B. »

Imralu wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 1:18 am
Travis B. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:05 pmThe idea that the distinction between the present perfect and the preterite is dying out in AmE seems to be a misunderstanding by speakers of other English varieties based on the fact that it just happens that in some cases where they use the present perfect Americans tend to use the preterite, without considering that there are plenty of cases where Americans very much do make a distinction between the two, such as this one.
Žégiddál gúŋā ŋébiqqincreasinglyq.
žég-ī-d-á-l gúŋ-ā ŋéb-ī-q-increasingly-q
be.cause-R5-DEM-MED-2S use.finger-R2 be.said-R5-∅-increasingly-∅

That's why I said 'increasingly'.
  • suggest, imply, d'oxa
D'oxac'aqa "increasingly" wiib'adaa ha leecamit'a wiib'adaa.
suggest-LOC-AGT.3.S.INAN "increasingly" change-ACTION COMP see-AGT.1.S-NEG change-ACTION
"Increasingly" implies a change while I see no change.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Imralu
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by Imralu »

jal wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:03 am
Isn't that used for cases where it's a passive form? For example "sang" is "sing.PST" because it is the past form of "sing" and it's difficult to clearly point out the specific past tense morpheme since it's formed by ablaut.
That's just semantics. "went" is still "go.PST", even though it's diachronically from a different root, like "is" is still "be.3s".
Yes, but that is a different form of "go", under the lemma "go". It fits into a specific grammatical paradigm and corresponds to other past tense forms of verbs.

What I'm talking about is simply a semantic modification because the glossing language lacks a single word, e.g. if we didn't have the word "pony", such a word in another language could be glossed as "small.horse". In this case, there is no need to reach for a grammatical category label such DIM because the word "small" is quite compact and "horse.DIM" would imply that it somehow corresponds to other diminutive words in some way (whether suppletively or not). In other cases, however, a gloss using regular words can just be too unwieldy. For example a gloss for "flock" as "group.of.birds" may be too long, but a label such as "COLL" fits better. Should that then be "bird.COLL"?

In any case, the Leipzig glossing rules do in fact allow for both square brackets and parentheses:
https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/pdf/Glossing-Rules.pdf wrote:Rule 6: Non-overt elements
If the morpheme-by-morpheme gloss contains an element that does not correspond
to an overt element in the example, it can be enclosed in square brackets. An
obvious alternative is to include an overt "Ø" in the object-language text, which is
separated by a hyphen like an overt element.

Code: Select all

(22) Latin
     puer        or:  puer-Ø
     boy[NOM.SG]      boy-NOM.SG
     ‘boy’            ‘boy’
Rule 7: Inherent categories
Inherent, non-overt categories such as gender may be indicated in the gloss, but a
special boundary symbol, the round parenthesis, is used. E.g

Code: Select all

(23) Hunzib (van den Berg 1995:46)
     oz#-di-g   xõxe     m-uq'e-r
     boy-OBL-AD tree(G4) G4-bend-PRET
     'Because of the boy the tree bent.'
                             (G4 = 4th gender, AD = adessive, PRET = preterite)
jal wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:03 amIf there's a word meaning "be eaten" and a word meaning "eat", and the speakers of the language both associate it with the same action, they're definitely two sides of the same medal. One can be a suppletive form of another, or there can be two independent roots, but just because "went" is a different word from "go", you shouldn't analyse it as being two totally different words.
When did I say I have two equivalent, independent roots. It works like this.
  • tém-ī
    tém-SBJ.R5
    'it is/gets eaten'
  • múl-ā tém-ī
    use.mouth-SBJ.R2 tém-SBJ.R5
    'I eat it'
The agent in this sentence is the subject of a clause indicating the use of one's mouth. It is not the other side of the tém medal because it is semantically much more general, also used for drinking, kissing and speech acts. It's functionally basically like an ergative marker except also indicating manner. Both of these words are valid clauses and this is also grammatical, although semantically fairly non-specific:
  • múl-ā
    use.mouth-SBJ.R2
    'I use my mouth' (I eat/drink/say/speak/tell/kiss/...)
If more specificity is needed (specifically "eat") and only the agent of eating is to be mentioned, not the patient, the antipassive/causative infix <úw> can be used.
  • t<úw>ém-ā
    tém<ANTIP>-SBJ.R2
    'I eat'
jal wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:03 amAnd no language would have two completely different roots for every verb in the language. That's just not how our mental model works (of course, when it's aliens, you can get away with everything, though I'd still find it highly unlikely).
Again, I never said there is anything like that. There is just a tendency for roots to equate meanings that are expressed passively in English. There aren't huge lists of underived roots with identical but opposite (in voice) meanings. It's more like how Slavic languages generally have an imperfective stem and then a derived perfective form. The imperfective form tends to be the underived form. Another language could tend to have underived perfectives and then derive imperfective forms from them. A lot of actions in Tobarese are simply named most basically with a form that describes what a patient does, akin to a passive in English, and is glossed as such whenever English lacks a corresponding underived verb ... it's not a passive as it is not inflected or derived from an active form. It's just an intransitive verb that describes the action of a semantic patient.
  • mágaz-ī
    fall.over-SBJ.R5
    'it falls over'
  • b-ā mágaz-ī
    use.hand-SBJ.R2 fall.over-SBJ.R5
    'I knock it over (by hand)'
I don't need to translate mágaz as knock.over.PASS because there is a simple intransitive verb in English. We don't say that "fall over" is a passive verb. I am forced to use passive verbs in the gloss only that's how the glossing language fills these gaps.

Code: Select all

        PATIENT ONLY:           CAUSATIVE:              TOBARESE PATIENT MARKING WORD:

1.      fall over               knock over              mágaz           fall.over
2.      die                     kill                    yóg             die
3.      ????????                eat                     tém             get.eaten/eat.PASS
4.      fall asleep             put to sleep            l<iy>óuh        sleep<INCEP>
5.      be visible              show                    šév             be.visible
6.      shatter                 shatter                 gávag           shatter(INTR) ??
The necessity of using a passive translation is simply because the only way this meaning is expressed in English is through a passive as there is no simple, underived intransitive word in English meaning "be eaten".

Also, the huge number of labile (ergative) verbs in English means that sometimes the transitivity of the English gloss is necessary and I usually do this in parentheses, as in "shatter" above. I do this because it is modifying the interpretation of the English word, not to indicate that the root gávag is intransitive. (That would be redundant as all roots are intransitive in Tobarese.) That's all I'm doing with "eat(PASS)". If it should be "eat.PASS" then it should probably also be "shatter.INTR" although, again, that is only necessary to modify the meaning of the English gloss. All Tobarese verbs are intransitive, so the "INTR" label is not about any particular characteristic of gávag, just that the English gloss word is ambiguous.
Travis B. wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:38 pmD'oxac'aqa "increasingly" wiib'adaa ha leecamit'a wiib'adaa.
suggest-LOC-AGT.3.S.INAN "increasingly" change-ACTION COMP see-AGT.1.S-NEG change-ACTION
"Increasingly" implies a change while I see no change.
Zuwíyaukī. Hiázzuwiyádziyaukī?
It has changed. Has it stopped changing?

Hiawwíŋiatsáxoqíŋgilišizzuwíyauk?
Or is it other varieties of English that have changed?
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = (non-)specific, A/ₐ = agent, E/ₑ = entity (person or thing)
________
MY MUSIC | MY PLANTS | ILIAQU
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Obrenissir seziè s'atorite domișilor temporar per èo Lussemburgo depajère. Pode ater șe taște ultime per mièir depaje rempilare!
receive.1.PST today DEF-permission residence.GEN.M temporary.M for to-DEF.M Luxembourg move | be able.1 finally DEF.F.PL task.PL final.F.PL for 1.GEN.M move complete.INF

[obˈɾenisːiɾ ˈsezjə satoˈɾitɛ domiˈʃiloɾ tɛmˈpoɾaɾ pɛɾ jɔ lusːɛmˈborgɔ dɛˈpaʒᵊɾɛ | ˈpodɛ ˈatɛɾ ʃɛ ˈtaʃtɛ ul̪ˈt̪imɛ pɛɾ mjɛjr dɛˈpaʒɛ rɛmˈpilaɾɛ]
Today I received the temporary stay authorization to move to Luxembourg. I can now finally make the last arrangements for the move!
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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c¶r¼‣©b©¸Ô¶-¶d¼çOr¼Ü©§Mb©‣©b©¸-w§.°ç
(your card of land named as the inside of this eye of form of man of fat, this card maybe branded by name of land named as eye perceiving in front of fat...)
you perhaps have a new stamp on your Telemor passport...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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È soleu une pasaje dã sa zona di Șengen, și si atoriti domișiloi Europii sãt dei tarieti, ahè n'obrenarse nai une priștir caçetu pașaportor nai un vinieta pașaporton. Mièir atorite d'atritare èo Lussemburgo è soleu èt un fulièssa papierin simpla!
be.3.PRS only one.M movement in DEF.F zone of Schengen | and DEF.M.PL permission.PL residence.GEN.M.PL Europe.GEN.M.PL be.3.PL.PRS of.M.PL card.PL | thus NEG-receive.1.FUT neither one.M new.M stamp passport.GEN.M neither one.F sticker passport.GEN.F || 1.GEN.M permission of-enter.INF to.DEF.M Luxembourg be.3.PRS only at one.F sheet paper.GEN.F simple.F

It's only a move within the Schengen area, and residence permits in Europe are all in the form of cards, so I won't be getting any new passport stamps or a sticker. My permission to enter Luxembourg is just a simple piece of paper!
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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g¬ºtª­PA¿Ff¹|tª­°u¿?¬ªe»äª
(this maybe giving displeasure of you as very creator of card of authority...)
How unlucky for a fan of official paper...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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  • live at, req'ad
  • permit, himma
  • customs, yogti
  • life, neelu
  • safe, willa
  • evil, xaga
Tagu aana yogtit ut himmat req'addaatit waa yogti willaset neelutit xaga.
COP-AGT.3.P.INAN all customs-GEN and permit-GEN live_at-ACTION-GEN-GEN but customs safe-NOM-GEN life-GEN-GEN evil
All customs and residence permits except for biosafety restrictions are evil.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Travis B. wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:02 pmTagu aana yogtit ut himmat req'addaatit waa yogti willaset neelutit xaga.
h¼h­°_­å«h­h«M@«‧­h­°»Så«hMu­«®f¼h¯
(animals all controlling animal roaming territory of them, this control of man and given by words of men...)
all animals control the animals that move through their territory, men control other men through words...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Anziè pluivissi atanteu. Seziè pluiva asse, mè piveu staimeu c̦e anziè.
yesterday rain.3.PST much || today rain.3 also | but less strong-ADV REL yesterday

[ˈanzjə ˈpl̪ɥivisːi aˈtan̪t̪ʊ || ˈsezjə ˈpl̪ɥivɐ ˈasːɛ | mɛ ˈpivʊ ˈstajmʊ t͡ʃɛ ˈanzjə]
Yesterday it rained a lot. Today it's also raining, but less strongly than yesterday.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Anziè pluivissi atanteu. Seziè pluiva asse, mè piveu staimeu c̦e anziè.
‚¸y¯²o¯TVÂ‫±‫±¯Tj¾n¯ÃQdc¸5Ä´Tç¶Q‚¸
(sky futurely raining please not on the land future walking by me doing nothing and at the seventh day...)
I hope it doesn't rain next week at my holiday destination...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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doctor shark wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:16 am
Anziè pluivissi atanteu. Seziè pluiva asse, mè piveu staimeu c̦e anziè.
yesterday rain.3.PST much || today rain.3 also | but less strong-ADV REL yesterday

[ˈanzjə ˈpl̪ɥivisːi aˈtan̪t̪ʊ || ˈsezjə ˈpl̪ɥivɐ ˈasːɛ | mɛ ˈpivʊ ˈstajmʊ t͡ʃɛ ˈanzjə]
Yesterday it rained a lot. Today it's also raining, but less strongly than yesterday.
  • rain (intr., impersonal), seh
  • flood (intr., impersonal), wiirat
  • recently, xanna
  • while ago, laddi
  • nearly, jootu
  • areas, t'uga
  • some, min
Magamu ha seh xanna waa wiiratic'alee jootu min t'ugazat ha seh laddi k'a.
/maɣamu xa sɛx χanːa waː wiːɾatʰitsʼaleː dzoːtʰu min tʼuɣazatʰ xa sɛx ladːi kʼa/
need-AGT.3.P COMP rain recently but flood-LOC-INST nearly some areas-PROX.INAN-GEN COMP rain a_while_ago EMPH
We needed the rain recently but it nearly flooded in some areas here due to heavy rain a while ago.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Ž¾ê¸±nµ7±q±dSPµ„º
(air warming men looking only at rain...)
when it's hot all we can think about is rain...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Nu horran wollas niplun pedít, horran tummus nefera pedít, toman wollas saulun pedít.
PRTC grass-SG.ACC want-PARTC.PRES.ACTV.M.SG.NOM rain-SG.ACC desire-3SG.PRES.ACT, grass-SG.ACC cut-PARTC.PRES.ACTV.M.SG.NOM cloud-PL.ACC desire-3SG.PRES.ACT, hay-SG.ACC want-PARTC.PRES.ACTV.M.SG.NOM sun-SG:ACC desire-3SG.PRES.ACT
Who wants grass wishes for rain, who cuts grass wishes for clouds*), who wants hay wishes for sun(shine).
*) Because they give shade.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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  • feel anxious (intr.), qatti
  • forget (trans.), k'uuge
  • add to (trans.), soham
  • store (trans.), lifa
Qattibim ha k'uugem ha sohamim min nammeqit lifahwa.
/qattʰibim xa kʼuːɣɛm xa sɔxamim min namːɛqitʰ lifaxwa/
feel_anxious-ABL-AGT.1.S COMP forget-AGT.1.S COMP add_to-DAT-AGT.1.S some code-GEN store-PLACE
I feel anxious because I forgot to commit some code to version control.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by jal »

Mi tingk op Sajiwan jok:

"A wo yu kol bas a di Loh? Jakusi."


I made up a Sajiwan joke:

"What do you call the bath of the Lord? Jacuzzi."

("Ja" means "God" in Sajiwan.)

Anyone else has silly jokes in their conlang?


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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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Anziè aissir èt Utrecht per sa festa aniversièrin d'une amo acudare. Fuissi un zeru dobra ziuè: fat c̦orveu, mè plesir d'ahèliã. Eșt asse se fuale ultimo di cualci ami (și asse s'amo-c̦i) vare, și mièin depaja ultima èt Utrecht, avõ mièin revenuta èo Lussemburgo.
yesterday go.1.PST to Utrecht for DEF.F celebration birthday.GEN.F of-one.M friend attend.INF || be.3.PST one.F very good.F day | make.3.IMPF hot.ADV but full.M of-sun || be.3.IMPF also DEF.M occasion final.M of some.M.PL friend.PL | and also DEF-friend-this | see.INF | and 1.GEN.F trip final.F to Utrecht | before 1.GEN.F return to-DEF.M Luxembourg

Yesterday I went to Utrecht to go to a friend's birthday party. It was a very nice day: it was hot, but with lots of sunshine. It was also the last time to see some friends (and that friend in particular), and my last visit to Utrecht, before my move back to Luxembourg.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by xxx »

u¼wÁ½ZuÉu¼lwÁ`uɂº¸»ëÍM¸ÁwsÉZ>º
(men of many places and living as men of one place, this life given by network transporting voice and vision...)
Fortunately, social networks allow us to stay in touch despite the distance...
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

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  • take a break (intrans.), k'allem
K'allemebim kaytadim nammeq zeftoforta yadi RP2350.
take_a_break-ABL-AGT.1.S make-DAT-AGT.1.S code zeptoforth REL.exist-DAT RP2350
I am taking a break from hacking on zeptoforth for the RP2350.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: Conlang fluency thread

Post by xxx »

h¼IvÂw¯­°h¾QÀ
(my joy by word of new...)
I'd prefer conlanging...
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