Anyone here have any thoughts on the walrus/fairy thing?

[Raphael]

https://zompist.wordpress.com/2024/09/2 ... vs-walrus/

[Travis B.]

As soon as I saw the question I immediately thought "walrus".

[Ares Land]

That's a surprisingly difficult question. Very tentatively, I'd say 'fairy', but I'm not really surprised (heh) to see many people on the 'walrus' side.

One factor I haven't seen mentioned is that people tend not to dismiss the supernatural entirely. (Would you really be happy about spending the night in an haunted house?)

[linguistcat]

On the original tumblr poll I was one of the people who answer fairy, despite believing fairies (or some equivalent) exist, because I have anti-fairy measures. I don't have anti-walrus measures. I trust my anti-fairy measures (and the probability they aren't real) more than I trust someone couldn't get a walrus and put it on my doorstep.

[Ares Land]

On the original tumblr poll I was one of the people who answer fairy, despite believing fairies (or some equivalent) exist, because I have anti-fairy measures. I don't have anti-walrus measures. I trust my anti-fairy measures (and the probability they aren't real) more than I trust someone couldn't get a walrus and put it on my doorstep.

So many questions! Why are anti-fairies measures needed and how does fairy prevention work?

[Torco]

I think there are a great many things that explain why people would go walrus. as zompist suggests in the frames thing, i think we learn as kids to suspend disbelief -and to some degree disable surprise- when we hear certain words. in general the social system may require us to behave very differently when the same thing is said, depending on the context, and lexical choice signals to the individual exactly which of the different scripts they should press play on, so to speak... so if we're told "target has not been neutralized" we're supposed to respond very different from if we're told "terrorists fail to kill leader", even when the propositional content of the two utterances may be the same, cause those lexical choices make us adopt this or that frame. and whenever we hear the word fairies, we're used to be in the type of frame where it's perfectly normal to see fairies around. there is no such frame for walruses.

but also I think we're surprised by what we don't often think. I've literally never seen a car explode, I don't think cars do ever explode, and intellectually I'd be so very extremely epistemically challenged if a car were to explode. But then again, i can imagine a car exploding just fine, having seen such an event in american movies and videogames often. I'm not even exactly sure how to imagine a walrus knocking on a door in such a way that anyone's internal experience of being near it is more like "oh dear, someone's knocking on the door" and not more like "aaaa what even is that sound aaaaaa"
____

anti-fairy measures

I, on the other hand, am solidly pro-fairy

[Zju]

Depends — am I living in Svalbard by the shore?

[malloc]

Undoubtedly the fairy would surprise me more. Walri are well established as real animals whereas fairies have no evidence for them or even a plausible explanation for how they could exist. The revelation that fairies exist would utterly refute my entire worldview along with that of pretty much everyone I trust on scientific and epistemological issues.

[Raphael]

Depends — am I living in Svalbard by the shore?

Congratulations, you win the thread!

[zompist]

The revelation that fairies exist would utterly refute my entire worldview along with that of pretty much everyone I trust on scientific and epistemological issues.

A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Again, if it turned out there were aliens who had the characteristics of humanoid shape, eight-inch height, sentience, and wings, would that turn your worldview upside down? Does your worldview tell us a lot about possible aliens, and if so how?

As I noted, some big implausibilities are brain size and wings. But ravens and gray parrots are surprisingly smart for their small brains, and there's no problem with their wings. The humanoid shape is implausible, but it's not like we've never seen monkeys. A bigger problem is that with arms and wings, they are hexapods, and no mammals (or birds or reptiles) have managed that. Still, that's implausible, not impossible— there are in fact mutations that produce extra limbs.

[bradrn]

I think I’d go with ‘fairy’, tentatively.

But ravens and gray parrots are surprisingly smart for their small brains, and there's no problem with their wings.

If I saw a magpie knocking — well, pecking — at the door, I’d be thoroughly unsurprised. (A cockatoo would be a bit more surprising, if only because they’d try to eat through the door rather than knocking.)

[bradrn]

A further thought: the original question lists ‘fairy’ before ‘walrus’. Might the judgements change if the order were reversed? If zompist’s interpretation in terms of frames were correct, I could easily see that happening.

[malloc]

A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Sure but most portrayals of fairies do consider them supernatural. You could posit purely naturalistic organisms that match our conception of the fairy bauplan but that differs greatly from what people usually mean by fairies. Assuming a purely biological entity, though, you would still have to explain how hominins evolved insectoid wings and why the fossil record has no trace of stem-fairies.

Again, if it turned out there were aliens who had the characteristics of humanoid shape, eight-inch height, sentience, and wings, would that turn your worldview upside down? Does your worldview tell us a lot about possible aliens, and if so how?

Walruses are already confirmed as something real, though, whereas aliens of any sort remain purely hypothetical. You are moving the goalposts in any case by talking about aliens rather than fairies.

[zompist]

A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Sure but most portrayals of fairies do consider them supernatural.

Ah, you mean such expert theologians as the Walt Disney Company?

Assuming a purely biological entity, though, you would still have to explain how hominins evolved insectoid wings and why the fossil record has no trace of stem-fairies.

For what it's worth, not all depictions of fairies show butterfly wings, or wings at all. Note that the Tenniel illustration I provided doesn't.

Walruses are already confirmed as something real, though, whereas aliens of any sort remain purely hypothetical. You are moving the goalposts in any case by talking about aliens rather than fairies.

No, I'm showing how the original question cheats by assuming that the creature is a fairy. You can do that in a story, but when you're investigating if a phenomenon occurs, you are not allowed to begin by assuming it does.

[zompist]

I think I’d go with ‘fairy’, tentatively.

But ravens and gray parrots are surprisingly smart for their small brains, and there's no problem with their wings.

If I saw a magpie knocking — well, pecking — at the door, I’d be thoroughly unsurprised. (A cockatoo would be a bit more surprising, if only because they’d try to eat through the door rather than knocking.)

The point was that small size does not necessarily rule out intelligence, not that birds are surprising creatures.

Though if a raven, cockatoo, grey parrot, or magpie knocked at my door, I'd be quite surprised, since a) none of these seems to occur in Illinois, and b) it'd have to get past three doors to reach it.

[xxx]

the whole world is science+fiction,
tech has invaded everything,
and human concerns no longer concern reality...

[WeepingElf]

The revelation that fairies exist would utterly refute my entire worldview along with that of pretty much everyone I trust on scientific and epistemological issues.

A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Again, if it turned out there were aliens who had the characteristics of humanoid shape, eight-inch height, sentience, and wings, would that turn your worldview upside down? Does your worldview tell us a lot about possible aliens, and if so how?

As I noted, some big implausibilities are brain size and wings. But ravens and gray parrots are surprisingly smart for their small brains, and there's no problem with their wings. The humanoid shape is implausible, but it's not like we've never seen monkeys. A bigger problem is that with arms and wings, they are hexapods, and no mammals (or birds or reptiles) have managed that. Still, that's implausible, not impossible— there are in fact mutations that produce extra limbs.

And other planets may have brought forth body plans unknown to us, including mammal-like critters with six limbs. And who says that fairies aren't extraterrestrials? Some people say that UFOs and fairies are just different ways of interpreting the same phenomenon, and that seems plausible to me. (Though I am not convinced that this "same phenomenon" really are extraterrestrial space travellers - but I won't rule out even that.)

[Raphael]

And other planets may have brought forth body plans unknown to us, including mammal-like critters with six limbs. And who says that fairies aren't extraterrestrials? Some people say that UFOs and fairies are just different ways of interpreting the same phenomenon, and that seems plausible to me. (Though I am not convinced that this "same phenomenon" really are extraterrestrial space travellers - but I won't rule out even that.)

Counterpoint: what if the reported creatures usually interpreted as space aliens really do exist, but are actually some kind of supernatural demons, rather than space travellers? (No, I'm not saying that I actually believe that.)

[Torco]

wait... is a fairy just a tiny person with wings? they're not from my culture, but aren't they also like inherently magical somehow? like dragons, I suppose: big lizard with wings isn't a dragon unless it also breathes fire.

[Raphael]

wait... is a fairy just a tiny person with wings? they're not from my culture, but aren't they also like inherently magical somehow? like dragons, I suppose: big lizard with wings isn't a dragon unless it also breathes fire.

Traditional folklore says that they're magical, but if you'd just met one, how would you tell if they are? At first, you'd just see a small person with wings.