Conlang Random Thread

[malloc]

It came from some medieval Chinese pillar and I believe it read: "Heaven gives everything to nourish man, man has nothing with which to repay Heaven, kill×7" or something like that.

[WeepingElf]

It came from some medieval Chinese pillar and I believe it read: "Heaven gives everything to nourish man, man has nothing with which to repay Heaven, kill×7" or something like that.

Yes - the "Seven Kill Stele". Allegedly erected by a 17th-century warlord, but it is probably just a myth - the stele has not been found so far. The first two lines make some pretty wisdom, but the third line, less so. I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

[Raphael]

It came from some medieval Chinese pillar and I believe it read: "Heaven gives everything to nourish man, man has nothing with which to repay Heaven, kill×7" or something like that.

Thank you!

[keenir]

It came from some medieval Chinese pillar and I believe it read: "Heaven gives everything to nourish man, man has nothing with which to repay Heaven, kill×7" or something like that.

Yes - the "Seven Kill Stele". Allegedly erected by a 17th-century warlord, but it is probably just a myth - the stele has not been found so far. The first two lines make some pretty wisdom, but the third line, less so. I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

My guess is that, not only does it have a nice saying, but it also has a random verb, a number, and asks how we multiply.

[fusijui]

It was either Confucius or Lao Tse, I don't get where the doubt about the source comes from. Obviously it wasn't Einstein or Gandhi.

(Does this forum have a designated 'sarcasm font'?)

[Man in Space]

It came from some medieval Chinese pillar and I believe it read: "Heaven gives everything to nourish man, man has nothing with which to repay Heaven, kill×7" or something like that.

Yes - the "Seven Kill Stele". Allegedly erected by a 17th-century warlord, but it is probably just a myth - the stele has not been found so far. The first two lines make some pretty wisdom, but the third line, less so. I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

Seems it might’ve been the first part of a real stele with the last line changed. (It also gave my previous [and failed] project its name, “Seven Kill Steel”.)

[bradrn]

I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

I don’t understand it either. It certainly doesn’t attract me. (I’d be more comfortable translating what seems to be the original version, although in general I’d never be happy with translating a text associated with a brutal mass-murderer.)

[Ahzoh]

I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

Cuz it's edgy and mysterious. Though the addition of the seven "kills" instead of the other lines makes it read like edgy preteen misanthropy.

[Zju]

Me reading Darren's explanation of how unconditional initial consonant loss occurs:

"Ah, right. I guess that makes sense. Delay of onset loudness. I—

*wanta- → Ngkoth /ntra/ "leave" (originally allophonic trilling triggered by a labial in the previous syllable)

—...what?!"

Do weird natlang phenomena never end? I guess that makes conlanging all the more interesting, at least.

[fusijui]

Yes - the "Seven Kill Stele". Allegedly erected by a 17th-century warlord, but it is probably just a myth - the stele has not been found so far. The first two lines make some pretty wisdom, but the third line, less so. I don't know why it attracts so many of us.

Seems it might’ve been the first part of a real stele with the last line changed. (It also gave my previous [and failed] project its name, “Seven Kill Steel”.)

Doesn't look like any Ming stela formula, offhand. Doesn't read like 17th-century wenyan either. Does read a lot like how a modern person with a solid general education in Chinese tries to write wenyan though.

[Ahzoh]

Always to make it easier for me to holistically conceive of things, I made a table:

derivationofverbs.png (17.46 KiB) Viewed 661 times

I haven't yet defined what meanings the pluractional conveys, but I am thinking that for base verbs it conveys an event-internal repetitive action (e.g. knock, batter, dribble, etc.), a durative action, or intensive/completive action. For causative and applicative verbs, the pluractional conveys either an event-external (e.g. distributive) repetitive action or an event-internal repetitive action. Or maybe the pluractional's meaning depends on the base verb's aktionsart (e.g. semelfactives apparently lend well to leading to event-internal repetition)

I am also wondering if it's still a transitive verb if the primary object of an applicative is specified with prepositions (e.g. benefactive applicative distinguished from dative applicative and locative applicative by the objects taking different prepositions)

[Travis B.]

I thought that expressing arguments with adpositions specifically contrasted with doing so with applicatives, so the idea of using an adposition to express an applied argument was inherently self-contradictory.

[Ahzoh]

I thought that expressing arguments with adpositions specifically contrasted with doing so with applicatives, so the idea of using an adposition to express an applied argument was inherently self-contradictory.

The preposition would exist only to specify the role (recipient, benefactor, instrument, location, etc.) of the applied object. The applicative verb is still marked as applicative indicating an oblique as being promoted to core (its presence is obligatory and nonomissable). Think "speak to" vs "speak for" vs "speak against" vs "speak in place of". All would be additionally marked "speak-APPL"

A base verb with a prepositional oblique would imply the optionality and omissability of the oblique.

[TomHChappell]

@Travis B.:
What Ahzoh just said.
(Not sure I could have said it any shorter!)

[Ahzoh]

My conlang will have both stress accen and pitch accent, and the language has a stress pattern similar to Latin.

Due to some elision sound changes, I don't know where I'm supposed to put the stress and tones for the following word types.

2. Polysyllable (antepenultimate stress):
2.a) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv > ˈ(σ—)cv—v > (σ—)cv•v
2.b) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv•v > ˈ(σ—)cv—v•v > (σ—)cv•v
2.c) ˈ(σ—)cv—ʜv•c > ˈ(σ—)cv—v•c > (σ—)cv•v•c

3. Polysyllable (penultimate stress):
3.a) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v > (σ—)cv•v
3.b) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv•v > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v•v > (σ—)cv•v
3.c) (σ—)ˈcv́•v—ʜv•c > (σ—)ˈcv́•v—v•c > (σ—)cv•v•c

Dash (—) indicates syllable boundary, middle dot (•) indicates mora boundary, and sigma (σ) represents a whole syllable. H stands for a "weak consonant" that is elided.

[bradrn]

My conlang will have both stress accen and pitch accent, and the language has a stress pattern similar to Latin.

To clarify: what do you mean by ‘pitch accent’? That term is incredibly ambiguous so it’s not clear what you mean by using it here.

[Ahzoh]

My conlang will have both stress accen and pitch accent, and the language has a stress pattern similar to Latin.

To clarify: what do you mean by ‘pitch accent’? That term is incredibly ambiguous so it’s not clear what you mean by using it here.

Of course, I mean something akin to Ancient Greek (and Sanskrit?) accent and not something akin to Japanese pitch accent.

A lot of the issue mostly revolves around whether superheavy syllables (CVVC) should count as light (two morae are extrametrical) or heavy (one mora is extrametrical). And if accent placement (both acoustic prominence AND tone) is dependent on mora count then it matters a lot.

[Ahzoh]

All right, I decided that when coalescing vowels all lengths are shortened and after then the accent is dealt with.

The result is a consistent distinction between singular and plural even when length and stress no longer distinguish:

Code: Select all

ˈmá.zi.jas    > ˈmá.zi.as                  > ˈmá.zaːs   > ma.ˈzâːs   "sea-neut.acc.sg"
ma.zi.ˈjâː.sa > ma.zi.ˈâː.sa > ma.zi.ˈá.sa > ma.ˈzǎː.sa > ma.ˈzǎː.sa "sea-neut.acc.pl"
ˈmá.zij       > ˈmá.zi                                  > ˈmá.zi     "sea\cons.sg"
ˈmá.zi.jaː    > ˈmá.zi.aː    > ˈmá.zi.a    > ˈmá.zaː    > ˈmá.zaː    "sea-neut.cons.pl"
ma.ˈzí.ja.ni  > ma.ˈzí.a.ni                > ma.ˈzâː.ni > ma.ˈzâː.ni "sea-neut.sg-1sg.poss"
ma.zi.ˈjâː.ni > ma.zi.ˈâː.ni > ma.zi.ˈá.ni > ma.ˈzǎː.ni > ma.ˈzǎː.ni "sea-neut.pl-1sg.poss"

So basically I wanted the stress accent system of Latin and the pitch accent system of Ancient Greek and I think I managed to have both. Maybe I will convert some of the rising tones as falling later on.

I'm not sure how I'll represent this in writing if at all. I could go the Greek way (circumflex for falling, acute for high and rising), but I already use the circumflex to indicate long vowels due to contraction.

Currently each example is:
mazâs (sea-neut.acc.sg)
mazâsa (sea-neut.acc.pl)
mazi (sea\cons.sg)
mazâ (sea-neut.cons.pl)
mazâni (sea-neut.sg-1sg.poss)
mazâni (sea-neut.pl-1sg.poss)

[Ahzoh]

ugh, pronoun problems.

/ˈɑː.ni/ "1sg,NOM/ sounds mellifluous but /ˈɑː.mɑ/ "2sg.NOM" and /ˈɑː.sɑ/ "3sg.NOM" sound absolutely strenuous to say.

I have thought to have /ˈiː.ni/ and /ˈiː.mɑ/ and /ˈiː.sɑ/ as alternatives, but I'm not feelin it for /ˈiː.ni/and I'm afraid there is no motivation to have /ˈɑː.ni/ but /ˈiː.mɑ/ and /ˈiː.sɑ/

[jal]

/ˈɑː.ni/ "1sg,NOM/ sounds mellifluous but /ˈɑː.mɑ/ "2sg.NOM" and /ˈɑː.sɑ/ "3sg.NOM" sound absolutely strenuous to say.

Apart from "ani" being Hebrew, I have no qualms with "ama" or "asa". You may find them unpleasant, but you cannot be serious they're "strenuous".


JAL