Well, that makes the most sense to me, too.
English questions
Re: English questions
Thank you, everyone!
Re: English questions
Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: English questions
I do, but I lose the distinction in all post-stress medials. So I'd merge petal/pedal too, and writer/rider.
Only exception I can think of is before syllabic n: Sutton has [ʔ], sudden has [ɾ].
Re: English questions
I presume you don't have American (or Canadian) raising then? (I say that because writer/rider is given as the classic example of a minimal pair kept apart by American and Canadian raising even for those who don't preserve a vowel length contrast before flapped /t/ and /d/.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: English questions
Only in the phrase “pedal to the metal”, due to analogical interference.
Re: English questions
I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.
Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]
Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]
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Re: English questions
Hard to say. I just listened to the examples on Wikipedia, and to me the writer/rider examples sound the same, though I can clearly hear the bowed/bout difference (and I don't have the raising there).Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:22 pmI presume you don't have American (or Canadian) raising then? (I say that because writer/rider is given as the classic example of a minimal pair kept apart by American and Canadian raising even for those who don't preserve a vowel length contrast before flapped /t/ and /d/.)
Re: English questions
(Emphasis mine.)Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:55 pm I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.
Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]
When you say that, do you imply that only rhotic vowels are long in AusE? I was under the very strong impression that AusE preserved the classic English phonemic vowel length contrast very well, with it in cases like STRUT versus START/PALM/BATH often being the feature which distinguished them.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: English questions
Long/short vowel pairs are as follows:Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:44 pm(Emphasis mine.)Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:55 pm I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.
Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]
When you say that, do you imply that only rhotic vowels are long in AusE? I was under the very strong impression that AusE preserved the classic English phonemic vowel length contrast very well, with it in cases like STRUT versus START/PALM/BATH often being the feature which distinguished them.
KIT [i] vs. NEAR [ɪː~iː]
FOOT [ʊ] vs. NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE [ʊː]
DRESS [e̞] vs. SQUARE [eː]
COMMA/LETTER/ROSES [ɜ] vs. NURSE [ɵː]
LAD [æ] vs. BAD [æː]
STRUT [ä] vs. START/PALM/BATH [äː]
The long vowels mostly come from rhotics, and in all cases trigger intrusive /r/ before vowels (with the exception of /æː/, which only occurs pre-consonantally). I call them "rhotic" so there's no confusion with the classic English "long vowels" which are all diphthongs (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])
Re: English questions
I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: English questions
I can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
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Other: Ergativity for Novices
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Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
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Re: English questions
[iː] and [ʉː], no obvious diphthongisation at all. (This is one of the ways in which my vowels differ substantially from those of ‘normal‘ Australian English.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Re: English questions
Interesting. I wonder if I mightn't not parse [iː] as NEAR in isolation.
Re: English questions
When people speak of "diphthongization of high long vowels" I always had thought of them as [ɪj] and [ʊw], i.e. only lightly diphthongized. (I only diphthongize mine when I have /uː/ after a coronal/palatal and before a dorsal, as [yu].)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: English questions
There's register-related alternation; careful [ɪi̯ ʊʉ̯] ranging to casual [əi̯ əy̯]. In unstressed syllables (happY) you might find [ɪi̯] or perhaps even [i], but always [əj] before a vowel ([ˌhæpʰəjɜzˈɫʷæɻɪi̯]). "to" and "gonna" both end in [ɜ] in normal unstressed position, but [əw] (or ?[əɻʷ]) before a vowel; likewise "the" is [ðɜ], [ðəj] (but never *[ðɜɻʷ]).
Re: English questions
I don't even intuitively think of my dialect as that divergent when compared to, say, Scottish or Irish English. Higher registers of my dialect really aren't that far from GA. (Much of what passes as funny in it ─ e.g. a phonemic split in /aɪ/ and /ɑr/, /t d n nt nd/ elision, final devoicing, vowel quantity allophony, vowel nasality contrasts, a consonant quantity contrast, /bm/ and /dn/ assimilation to long nasals preceded by unnasalized vowels, etc. ─ really is widespread in NAE but people aren't really aware of it, being deluded into thinking that NAE is this idealized GA that everyone is taught it is.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: English questions
I merge metal/medal and petal/pedal, but not writer/rider ([ɹʌjɾɚ] vs. [ɹa(ɛ̯)ɾɚ]) or Sutton/sudden ([sʌʔ͡tn̩] vs. [sʌdn̩])
Duaj teibohnggoe kyoe' quaqtoeq lucj lhaj k'yoejdej noeyn tucj.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.
K'yoejdaq fohm q'ujdoe duaj teibohnggoen dlehq lucj.
Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq. Teijp'vq.