United States Politics Thread 46

[jcb]

I'll have to look into this.

Further reading/watching:
https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/ ... -campaign/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWq2QvvPw68

Talking Points
Jesse Ventura says Donald Trump "copied everything" from Minnesota governor campaign for 2016 presidential run

[Ares Land]

Is Ukraine going to be better off under Russia? Is Taiwan going to be better off under China?

Why don't you ask Trump voters? I can't help these countries. I can only take what I'm given and think of the best next step. If we do get a multipolar world, it could be easier to undermine each oppressive regime.

We are not getting a multipolar world. That's just Republican propaganda.

One thing that might have happened if political leaders had a minimum of sense is Europe getting its act together and organizing for defense without the United States. Spoilers: that will never happen. One Trumpist creature on Twitter was bragging about "the client kings paying homage to the new emperor" and tell you what, this is more or less what's going to happen.

[Raphael]

Is Ukraine going to be better off under Russia? Is Taiwan going to be better off under China?

Why don't you ask Trump voters? I can't help these countries. I can only take what I'm given and think of the best next step. If we do get a multipolar world, it could be easier to undermine each oppressive regime.

We are not getting a multipolar world. That's just Republican propaganda.

I'd say we currently have a multipolar world, or at least we had one until Monday. We will be back to unipolar once the global autocratic alliance is firmly established as the one pole that dominates everything.

[Ares Land]

I found this series of slides illuminating.

It was, and so was the article. And, I should add, curiously relatable.

[keenir]

great...what about the family or the individual? or is everyone defined by their commons/community membership?

If a family business becomes a megacorp, it will be "taxed" until it's a family business again.

two questions:
1: why the quotation marks around taxing?
2: didn't you just say there'd be no taxes?

okay, a third: doesn't that discourage family businesses from being successful? (you may think "why would that discourage them?" but if they get punished/penalized for having a success that grows them beyond being a small business...)

(and isn't that exactly the conditions you said you were escaping from in your own commons? certainly sounds like it, at least)

How so?

pressure from family/neighborhood/denomination.

[keenir]

One thing that might have happened if political leaders had a minimum of sense is Europe getting its act together and organizing for defense without the United States. Spoilers: that will never happen. One Trumpist creature on Twitter was bragging about "the client kings paying homage to the new emperor" and tell you what, this is more or less what's going to happen.

I don't doubt that many countries will be calling him up to say congrats on being elected...but I don't think he's going to have an easy time making anyone pay him in the way he campaigned for -- getting Eastern Europe to repay the US for the Marshall Plan et al? Japan to repay for all the postwar changes? I don't think anyone will be doing that, whether or not they have enough money to do that.

[WeepingElf]

One thing that might have happened if political leaders had a minimum of sense is Europe getting its act together and organizing for defense without the United States. Spoilers: that will never happen. One Trumpist creature on Twitter was bragging about "the client kings paying homage to the new emperor" and tell you what, this is more or less what's going to happen.

I don't doubt that many countries will be calling him up to say congrats on being elected...but I don't think he's going to have an easy time making anyone pay him in the way he campaigned for -- getting Eastern Europe to repay the US for the Marshall Plan et al? Japan to repay for all the postwar changes? I don't think anyone will be doing that, whether or not they have enough money to do that.

Well, many congratulations are just out of politeness, I think - it is, after all, polite for a democratically elected leader to congratulate a newly democratically elected leader. After all, Trump was elected, and did not conduct a coup d'état, which would be a different matter. But I guess that most European heads of government (with some exceptions like Orbán or Meloni) don't really look forward to having to deal with this madman, and would have preferred a Harris victory. And we must say that we don't know yet how many of the frightening things Trump has announced to do when he is elected will actually be done. (But people used to say the same about Hitler in 1933, and we know what happened.) The congratulations from Moscow and Beijing probably were more sincere, even if it is IMHO far from certain that Trump will be Putin's and Xi's best friend.

[Ares Land]

The congratulations are a given; Meloni looked enthusiastic though; Orbán is definitely overjoyed. It's hard to interpret such things, but Macron was among the very first to congratulate Trump (before the AP calls). I doubt Keir Starmer is a Trump fan, but he'll still place the special relationship (if they still call it that?) first.

Now, nobody's going to pay the US or whatever, whatever Trump might have said in meetings -- that was just him being a clown.

However, this means the diplomacy and defense of European countries that could and should show a modicum of independance will still be aligned with the US, possibly even more so.
Which in turns means that if Trump's plan for peace of Ukraine is to give half of Ukraine to Putin, that's just what's going to happen.

[Xhin]

Weighing in here a bit.

I'm in a rare position where the vast majority of my real life circle supports trump and the vast majority of my online circle thinks we just ended democracy with thunderous applause. I see a lot of the same things pop up on both sides, like "is the other side evil, or just stupid/brainwashed/in a cult?" and "I can't in good conscience be friends with someone who voted X". Obviously the two sides are not equivalent, but the vast majority of the people that support them sure are.

What seems to prevail most is ignorance, in the literal sense of the word. People that support trump are completely unaware of the rise of hate crimes in his era, and how his rhetoric directly emboldens the fringe, and then meanwhile, people that are against Trump are completely unaware of how many people in favor of him are rational lifelong Democrats, or that his base is largely composed of people that otherwise feel orphaned by modern politics.

I would encourage anyone that doesn't understand how the other side can think a certain way to go into those other spheres and learn for themselves. Find those that are tolerant and rational and avoid those that act based on fear of the Other. You may not agree with most of what they say and you may find some of the things they say to be overwhelmingly stupid, but they feel the same way about you and that's just how discourse works. If nothing else, be there to observe. Notice how their priorities differ from yours, and what is seen that you were unaware of vs what is unknown to them that is clear to you. Discover how their ideologies target those differences in perception and provides both reason and feeling to support it. Don't expect to find common ground, but at least walk away with a better understanding of why people think the way that they do.

No one wants what's coming. The best way to ward off that future is to re-establish lines of communication and tolerance with rational actors and put the Fringes back on the fringes. It will take a lot of work to heal fractures caused by inflammatory rhetoric and social media echo chambers, but the stakes are high for failure. Cooler heads must prevail.