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[malloc]

How did having control of the armed forces and all media outlets work out for Bashar Assad?

Sure but you're forgetting about all the dictators who aren't getting overthrown, which includes the vast majority of them. Trump seems much closer to Putin than Assad in terms of his popularity.

[Linguoboy]

How did having control of the armed forces and all media outlets work out for Bashar Assad?

Sure but you're forgetting about all the dictators who aren't getting overthrown, which includes the vast majority of them.

I'm not forgetting about them at all. Like I said, look at the actual academic research on the subject rather than just generalising based on your own laughably limited experience.

Trump is still not a dictator and it's unlikely he'll ever become one. Russia is a country with a strong tradition of autocracy and little experience with democracy before 1989; the USA is more or less the opposite. South Korea has much less of a democratic tradition than the USA and look what just happened there when the President tried to declare martial law.

Much as Trump admires Putin, he doesn't have the qualities (chief among them being discipline) required to emulate him. Do you think Putin spends all morning watching cable news and tweeting? Dictatorships are brittle. Supreme leaders surround themselves with yes-men who suppress criticism. Thus they're almost always wrong-footed when the situation on the ground suddenly shifts under their feet.

[linguistcat]

malloc, I don't think we're living in the same world if you think that a lot of people who voted for Trump were hardcore supporters in the first place, or if you think even some of those hardcore supporters haven't started thinking he's a moron since realizing tariffs will cost them more money.

[malloc]

malloc, I don't think we're living in the same world if you think that a lot of people who voted for Trump were hardcore supporters in the first place, or if you think even some of those hardcore supporters haven't started thinking he's a moron since realizing tariffs will cost them more money.

Anyone who looks at his record of extreme bigotry, corruption, and an attempted coup and still supports him must surely qualify as a hardcore supporter. Despite all that has happened, he has only gained millions of votes with each election and I can see nothing at this point that would destroy his popularity. Given the overwhelming saturation of social media with MAGA propaganda and legacy media cringing before the threat of defamation lawsuits, he will never have to worry about bad press again.

[linguistcat]

malloc, I don't think we're living in the same world if you think that a lot of people who voted for Trump were hardcore supporters in the first place, or if you think even some of those hardcore supporters haven't started thinking he's a moron since realizing tariffs will cost them more money.

Anyone who looks at his record of extreme bigotry, corruption, and an attempted coup and still supports him must surely qualify as a hardcore supporter. Despite all that has happened, he has only gained millions of votes with each election and I can see nothing at this point that would destroy his popularity. Given the overwhelming saturation of social media with MAGA propaganda and legacy media cringing before the threat of defamation lawsuits, he will never have to worry about bad press again.

malloc, you sound like I do when my depression and anxiety are not being treated. And you have the entire time you've been on the board. Things suck, but being hopeless doesn't help anyone. Certainly not you and certainly not all the folks who are suggesting you get help.

[Linguoboy]

Anyone who looks at his record of extreme bigotry, corruption, and an attempted coup and still supports him must surely qualify as a hardcore supporter. Despite all that has happened, he has only gained millions of votes with each election and I can see nothing at this point that would destroy his popularity.

He's not particularly popular. His current favourability rating (according to fivethirtyeight) is 47%. That's the highest it's ever been. It's never been net positive in their weighted average and from here, it's only down. His ratings also peaked just after the 2016 election and then quickly dropped when it sank in what being governed by him was really like. In pollspeak, he has a low ceiling. For everyone out there who adores Trump, there's someone else who hates him with equal vehemence. No amount of propaganda will be able to turn these folks into Trump lovers.

Given the overwhelming saturation of social media with MAGA propaganda and legacy media cringing before the threat of defamation lawsuits, he will never have to worry about bad press again.

LMFAO. He wishes.

[keenir]

malloc, I don't think we're living in the same world if you think that a lot of people who voted for Trump were hardcore supporters in the first place, or if you think even some of those hardcore supporters haven't started thinking he's a moron since realizing tariffs will cost them more money.

Anyone who looks at his record of extreme bigotry, corruption, and an attempted coup and still supports him must surely qualify as a hardcore supporter..

I would not be surprised if, like with Brexit, a lot of the "voting for" this and last time around, were protest votes whose aim wasn't "in favor of him"...rather being "against the other guy".

Given the overwhelming saturation of social media with MAGA propaganda and legacy media cringing before the threat of defamation lawsuits, he will never have to worry about bad press again.

Trump never worries - he only cusses.

[keenir]

And you're basing this on...?

Basic arithmetic. 80% is considerably larger than 20% so logically it should win a civil war unless the smaller side has some astonishing advantage. That is hardly the case for liberals who are not exactly known for their firepower or charisma. How do you defeat someone who outnumbers you hour to one and has all the guns and media?

you mean other than the Vietnam Approach? (see US in SE Asia, USSR in Afghanistan, etc)

You forget that having 20 percent doesn't necessarily mean you're up against 80 percent. There may be a lot of undecideds or neutrals as well.

to be fair, Malloc wasn't the one who said that we have 20% -- I did...and that was indeed my rebuttal to Malloc's statement of Trump having 80%...so strictly speaking, it doesn't neccessarily mean we have 20% in the first place...but I'd also question how Malloc got that 80% number.

How did having control of the armed forces and all media outlets work out for Bashar Assad?

Sure but you're forgetting about all the dictators who aren't getting overthrown, which includes the vast majority of them. Trump seems much closer to Putin than Assad in terms of his popularity.

that reminds of of a saying about how secret societies never have whistleblowers revealing the organization to the world and the public; the reply was "well yeah, but thats only because we only hear about the ones who fail to keep hidden."

[Ares Land]

Trump isn't worth getting that worked up about. George W. Bush was about as bad, and who even thinks about him now?

[Raphael]

Trump isn't worth getting that worked up about. George W. Bush was about as bad, and who even thinks about him now?

As someone put it, Bush paid virtue the tribute of hypocrisy, which Trump doesn't.

[malloc]

Trump isn't worth getting that worked up about. George W. Bush was about as bad, and who even thinks about him now?

Would you feel the same about Le Pen, who seems almost guaranteed to win the presidency given the surging far right and unpopularity of mainstream liberalism? For that matter, it has always disappointed me how everyone forgot about how much Bush sucked.

you mean other than the Vietnam Approach? (see US in SE Asia, USSR in Afghanistan, etc)

Except that the rebels in Vietnam had broad popular support, hence why the South Vietnamese government needed so much help from the US military. Any resistance movement in the US against Trump or his successor will have very little support because the entire weight of media will oppose them. The only thing most people will know about resistance is that they eat babies and burn churches, hardly making them sympathetic. Meanwhile the media can always blame any negative effects of Trump's policies on sabotage by terrorists and foreign powers.

He's not particularly popular. His current favourability rating (according to fivethirtyeight) is 47%. That's the highest it's ever been. It's never been net positive in their weighted average and from here, it's only down.

That page also shows it increasing dramatically over the past few weeks with no sign of cresting, let alone crashing. Judging by the results of the election, we must accept that many people find Trump's platform quite appealing. I think most people will be too busy cheering mass deportation and the persecution of trans people to care about what happens to Ukraine or the technical minutia of tariffs.

In pollspeak, he has a low ceiling. For everyone out there who adores Trump, there's someone else who hates him with equal vehemence. No amount of propaganda will be able to turn these folks into Trump lovers.

Until the media consists entirely of propaganda with any stories critical of Trump or the GOP excluded from consideration. For most people at least, if they spend years hearing about the existential threat of immigrants, the depravity of LGBT people, and the parasitism of the poor every single day and never any counterpoints, their minds will eventually change. Sure some people manage to avoid overwhelming propaganda and peer pressure but not enough to fight the vast majority of regime supporters.

[keenir]

you mean other than the Vietnam Approach? (see US in SE Asia, USSR in Afghanistan, etc)

Except that the rebels in Vietnam had broad popular support, hence why the South Vietnamese government needed so much help from the US military. Any resistance movement in the US against Trump or his successor will have very little support because the entire weight of media will oppose them.

the entire weight of the media?? all the media?

I'm not sure Trump can get CNN and MSNBC and CBS on his side, much less BBC and TDN or any other network.

The only thing most people will know about resistance is that they eat babies and burn churches, hardly making them sympathetic.

wasn't that what MAGA boasted of doing?

Meanwhile the media can always blame any negative effects of Trump's policies on sabotage by terrorists and foreign powers.

what foreign powers? every time Trump threatened to destroy them like nobody'd been destroyed before, he turns into that nation's biggest fanboy.

He's not particularly popular. His current favourability rating (according to fivethirtyeight) is 47%. That's the highest it's ever been. It's never been net positive in their weighted average and from here, it's only down.

That page also shows it increasing dramatically over the past few weeks with no sign of cresting, let alone crashing. Judging by the results of the election, we must accept that many people find Trump's platform quite appealing

or they just didn't like how Biden didn't fix the economy fast enough. a LOT of people did protest votes for exactly that reason.

[Linguoboy]

He's not particularly popular. His current favourability rating (according to fivethirtyeight) is 47%. That's the highest it's ever been. It's never been net positive in their weighted average and from here, it's only down.

That page also shows it increasing dramatically over the past few weeks with no sign of cresting, let alone crashing.

That's why you have to look at the longterm trend. Extrapolating based on the most recent data is literally the most amateurish error you can make in statistics.

Unfortunately, I can't find historical data for the 538 ratings, but Rasmussen has them. They're a bit higher, since Rasmussen skews right, but they do helpfully break out "strongly approve" from "total approve". Looking at that, you'll see that core support peaked at 44% just after the inauguration. Only two months into the term, it dropped to 28% and then struggled to stay above 30% for the next couple of years. Meanwhile his "strongly disapprove" numbers were pretty consistently between 40% and 45%. IOW, almost half again as many people hated him as liked him.

As others have pointed out, he garnered a lot of protest votes this time around. These will be the first folks to abandon him when his promises about bringing down prices are revealed hollow and deporting the folks who actually get all the work done doesn't actually fix anything.

In pollspeak, he has a low ceiling. For everyone out there who adores Trump, there's someone else who hates him with equal vehemence. No amount of propaganda will be able to turn these folks into Trump lovers.

Until the media consists entirely of propaganda with any stories critical of Trump or the GOP excluded from consideration.

So, in other words, the 5th of Never.

For most people at least

LOL. What do you actually know about what goes on in the minds of "most people"? You don't even understand how most people on this board think.

if they spend years hearing about the existential threat of immigrants, the depravity of LGBT people, and the parasitism of the poor every single day and never any counterpoints, their minds will eventually change. Sure some people manage to avoid overwhelming propaganda and peer pressure but not enough to fight the vast majority of regime supporters.

But that's just it: they aren't a "vast majority" and won't ever be.

He's not a magician, he's a man--and a mortal one at that. His vice-president has all the charisma of an unshowered armpit. If DJT dies in office, Vance could go down in history as the most unpopular leader since Nixon.

[keenir]

Until the media consists entirely of propaganda with any stories critical of Trump or the GOP excluded from consideration.

So, in other words, the 5th of Never.

or the 32nd of any month you care to pick.

He's not a magician, he's a man--and a mortal one at that. His vice-president has all the charisma of an unshowered armpit. If DJT dies in office, Vance could go down in history as the most unpopular leader since Nixon.

some Republicans I know, have repeatedly said that Trump is worse than Nixon...and was worse long before trying a coup.

[malloc]

But that's just it: they aren't a "vast majority" and won't ever be.

You grew up in an era when the vast majority of people wanted LGBT people extirpated and cheered the AIDS epidemic as God's wrath against the wicked. With enough propaganda, that could easily become the case again. When the news reports on the horrific crimes (whether real or fabricated) of minorities every day and any positive representation is excluded from media, what impact do you think that will have on public opinion?

the entire weight of the media?? all the media?

I'm not sure Trump can get CNN and MSNBC and CBS on his side, much less BBC and TDN or any other network.

He can certainly get domestic news media on his side with ease. He has already taken to suing media for defamation which will convince the vast majority of media not to risk his wrath in the future. For that matter, CNN and MSNBC have lost massive amounts of viewership and will likely fold or get purchased by Trump-aligned oligarchs like Musk in the coming years. The vast majority of Americans don't consume foreign news like the BBC so they hardly seem relevant. Meanwhile social media is saturated with far right propaganda with figures like Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson having a stranglehold over the minds of younger people.

[Linguoboy]

You grew up in an era when the vast majority of people wanted LGBT people extirpated and cheered the AIDS epidemic as God's wrath against the wicked.

Naw, it was never "the vast majority". The "vast majority" were indifferent; at most, they wanted us kept away from their kids, but they didn't want us dead.

You know what the big difference is between now and then, though? Now the vast majority of USAmericans (90% or more) actually know LGBTQIA+ people. 60%+ say they have close QUILTBAG friends or family. It's a lot harder to make propaganda stick when you personally know its targets and they are nothing like how they're being depicted. This is why rightwingers have pivoted to demonising trans folk instead. They're a smaller percentage (comparable to what openly queer folk were in the bad old days), so it's easier to spread lies and hate about them. (By contrast, only 11% of USAmericans say they personally know someone trans and only 5% say it's someone close to them.)

With enough propaganda, that could easily become the case again.

I don't think you understand what propaganda actually is or how it works. I'd say "read something", but I know from long experience that you're not interested in actually educating yourself on any topic.

[malloc]

You know what the big difference is between now and then, though? Now the vast majority of USAmericans (90% or more) actually know LGBTQIA+ people. 60%+ say they have close QUILTBAG friends or family. It's a lot harder to make propaganda stick when you personally know its targets and they are nothing like how they're being depicted. This is why rightwingers have pivoted to demonising trans folk instead. They're a smaller percentage (comparable to what openly queer folk were in the bad old days), so it's easier to spread lies and hate about them. (By contrast, only 11% of USAmericans say they personally know someone trans and only 5% say it's someone close to them.)

Sure but most people have women in their families and yet misogyny is still a major problem. Consider all the gamergate types who live in their mother's proverbial basement. Likewise most white people in the South knew plenty of Black people yet still treated them horribly. Undoubtedly we will see the right making the case that all the horrors they attribute to trans people apply to other LGBT people. How many laypeople really understand the distinction between all the various LGBT identities well enough to separate their negative feelings toward transgender people from their feelings on other LGBT people?

I don't think you understand what propaganda actually is or how it works. I'd say "read something", but I know from long experience that you're not interested in actually educating yourself on any topic.

What distinguishes Trump from people like Putin and Orbán who managed to achieve supermajority support through propaganda and overwhelming dominance of the media? Propaganda has managed to turn entire cultures permanently and almost unanimously right wing and I see no reason why America is somehow immune.

[Linguoboy]

What distinguishes Trump from people like Putin and Orbán who managed to achieve supermajority support through propaganda and overwhelming dominance of the media? Propaganda has managed to turn entire cultures permanently and almost unanimously right wing and I see no reason why America is somehow immune.

I've already explained to you the difference between Trump and Putin and between the USA and Russia and you ignored them because they don't fit your doomsday hypothesis. You're also wrong about what propaganda has and hasn't accomplished. (There's nothing either "permanent" or "unanimous" about the fascist bent of contemporary Russia, for instance.) There's clearly no purpose to continuing this discussion.

Seek help for your depression and anxiety before you spiral further. That is all.

[keenir]

What distinguishes Trump from people like Putin and Orbán who managed to achieve supermajority support through propaganda and overwhelming dominance of the media? Propaganda has managed to turn entire cultures permanently and almost unanimously right wing and I see no reason why America is somehow immune.

so, if the majority vote that Trump got this time around, indicates that America has become evil...what does it mean that Obama got overwhelming majority vote at least once in the same country.

I'm starting to think you want us to gather together an army or five, storm the "beaches of Normandy" here in the US, and liberate it from Trump.

You're right about one thing: Trump and Putin do have one thing in common: they turn on a dime, hating anyone who speaks against them, using people for opportunistic things -- and Trump is an oligarch, always has been. Should be easy enough to know how Putin loves those people.

But that's just it: they aren't a "vast majority" and won't ever be.

You grew up in an era when the vast majority of people wanted LGBT people extirpated and cheered the AIDS epidemic as God's wrath against the wicked. With enough propaganda, that could easily become the case again.

But you're saying that all they need is enough propaganda...and yet that propaganda hasn't ceased since its days of Westboro Baptists protesting funerals and Faldwell commenting on hurricanes.

...so clearly the "give it enough time" view doesn't actually work.

When the news reports on the horrific crimes (whether real or fabricated) of minorities every day and any positive representation is excluded from media, what impact do you think that will have on public opinion?

fortunately, we actually can answer this: for over a decade, we've been seeing in the news reports about violence against African-Americans...has that caused the USA to change its thinking to "its perfectly okay to hurt African-Americans" ?

Nope.

the entire weight of the media?? all the media?

I'm not sure Trump can get CNN and MSNBC and CBS on his side, much less BBC and TDN or any other network.

He can certainly get domestic news media on his side with ease. He has already taken to suing media for defamation which will convince the vast majority of media not to risk his wrath in the future.

he's been suing people since before that thing with a pronstar before his first presidential term. hasn't exactly gone swimmingly for him thus far.

For that matter, CNN and MSNBC have lost massive amounts of viewership and will likely fold or get purchased by Trump-aligned oligarchs like Musk in the coming years.

Malloc, people have been predicting the folding of CNN and other networks since I was five. Suffice to say its been more than a few decades since then.

The vast majority of Americans don't consume foreign news like the BBC so they hardly seem relevant.

riiight, just ignore that potential fifth column over there, milord.

[malloc]

so, if the majority vote that Trump got this time around, indicates that America has become evil...what does it mean that Obama got overwhelming majority vote at least once in the same country.

Times have changed and the US electorate has clearly moved far to the right. The same has happened all across the world for unclear reasons.

But you're saying that all they need is enough propaganda...and yet that propaganda hasn't ceased since its days of Westboro Baptists protesting funerals and Faldwell commenting on hurricanes.

...so clearly the "give it enough time" view doesn't actually work.

The Westboro Baptists did not have anywhere near the funding or finesse of contemporary right wing propagandists. Most people regarded them as obvious kooks and didn't take their message seriously. They hardly compare to Fox News or even Prager University in terms of reach and influence.

fortunately, we actually can answer this: for over a decade, we've been seeing in the news reports about violence against African-Americans...has that caused the USA to change its thinking to "its perfectly okay to hurt African-Americans" ?

Nope.

Those news reports have not unanimously declared all Black people dangerous vermin, though. Official accounts have ranged from hostile to sympathetic depending on which channel you're watching. When every single newspaper, news channel, and social media influencer defends police brutality against Black people, it will definitely impact public opinion.

he's been suing people since before that thing with a pronstar before his first presidential term. hasn't exactly gone swimmingly for him thus far.

He recently sued ABC for defamation and forced them to recant. He can easily apply the same tactic to any other news channel that criticizes him and his handpicked judges will rule in his favor. It will not take long before all new media avoids any negative coverage just to avoid lawsuits.