Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.

[Travis B.]

* Chicago is chic[ɑ]go, though some do have the general [a] pronunciation.

Chic[ɑ]go is the only pronunciation I’m aware of… do people actually use [a] there?

Many people from Chicago use [a] in Chicago, but many use [ɑ] as well.

(On the other hand, I’m not sure about the first consonant. Sometimes I use [ʃ], sometimes [t͡ʃ].)

The normal pronunciation of Chicago is with [ʃ]; I have heard people pronounce it with [tʃʰ], that honestly feels, well, 'incorrect' to me even though apparently there are parts of the US where that is common.

[Darren]

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

[zompist]

I remember someone here (was it linguoboy?) saying that the 'original' pronunciation is the LOT/PALM one, and the THOUGHT pronunciation is reaction to the stigmatization of the realization of LOT/PALM as [æ]. It might be said stigmatization why it is now recessive.

It was me. Unfortunately I read about it decades ago so I don't have more info.

Labov for once doesn't give enough examples, but I believe it's related to the NCVS.

[zompist]

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

Do you merge cot/caught? It's /ɔ/ as in caught, taught, but it has a more open realization [ɒ] here.

[Darren]

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

Do you merge cot/caught? It's /ɔ/ as in caught, taught, but it has a more open realization [ɒ] here.

cot [kʰɒʔt]
caught [kʰʊːʔt]

I could definitely distinguish /ɒ/ (COT) from /a/ (STRUT) but only with the reinforcement of the rounding of the former.

[Travis B.]

I remember someone here (was it linguoboy?) saying that the 'original' pronunciation is the LOT/PALM one, and the THOUGHT pronunciation is reaction to the stigmatization of the realization of LOT/PALM as [æ]. It might be said stigmatization why it is now recessive.

It was me. Unfortunately I read about it decades ago so I don't have more info.

Labov for once doesn't give enough examples, but I believe it's related to the NCVS.

It sounds like a result of the NCVS to me.

[Travis B.]

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

GA and Inland North dialects have fewer low(ish) vowels than AusE varieties, as they have the father-bother merger and lack the bad-lad split, and that is not even considering varieties with the cot-caught merger.

[Travis B.]

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

Do you merge cot/caught? It's /ɔ/ as in caught, taught, but it has a more open realization [ɒ] here.

cot [kʰɒʔt]
caught [kʰʊːʔt]

I could definitely distinguish /ɒ/ (COT) from /a/ (STRUT) but only with the reinforcement of the rounding of the former.

Your THOUGHT is very high... I thought GenAus had [oː] for THOUGHT...

[Darren]

I thought GenAus had [oː] for THOUGHT...

People say that, but I find it is indistinguishable in quality from FOOT. One day I'll work out how to use praat and test this.

[bradrn]

I thought GenAus had [oː] for THOUGHT...

People say that, but I find it is indistinguishable in quality from FOOT. One day I'll work out how to use praat and test this.

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

(Praat is very easy to use in my experience. In the menu bar you can select Help>Info for a tutorial, or you could use this tutorial I found, or this one ignoring the bits about R.)

[Darren]

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

Do you have a distinct CURE vowel?

[Travis B.]

One thing that I get from hearing AusE is that the AusE THOUGHT is pretty much identical to my GOAT ignoring quantity when not following a coronal and not before a vowel or word-final, where it is [o̞(ː)]. I don't think I ever remembering hearing an Australian have [ʊː] for THOUGHT; I would probably remember if I had.

[bradrn]

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

Do you have a distinct CURE vowel?

CURE for me is something like [ˈk̟͡çj̊ʊɜ̯], so I guess I do.

[Travis B.]

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

Do you have a distinct CURE vowel?

This is off-topic, but 'CURE' is a purported lexical set I really don't like. For instance, it can really be split into three different lexical sets, which I will call 'SURE'*, 'POOR', and 'TOUR'. The reason is that 'SURE'* alternates in many NAE varieties between /ɜr/, merging with NURSE, and /ʊr/, being realized like 'TOUR', while many NAE varieties merge 'POOR' with 'NORTH' and 'FORCE' as /ɔr/ while leaving 'TOUR' unchanged as /ʊr/ (my mother does this, for instance).

* This could also be called 'PURE', but that is too close to 'POOR'.

[Travis B.]

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

Do you have a distinct CURE vowel?

CURE for me is something like [ˈk̟͡çj̊ʊɜ̯], so I guess I do.

Even I wouldn't transcribe that onset that narrowly ─ lol! (My cure alternates between [cʰjy̆ŭ̯ʁˤ]~[cʰjyu̯ʁˤ] and [cʰjʁ̩ˤ(ː)].)

[Lērisama]

Really? For me they’re pretty clearly different, [o̞ː] vs [ʊ].

Do you have a distinct CURE vowel?

This is off-topic, but 'CURE' is a purported lexical set I really don't like. For instance, it can really be split into three different lexical sets, which I will call 'SURE'*, 'POOR', and 'TOUR'. The reason is that 'SURE'* alternates in many NAE varieties between /ɜr/, merging with NURSE, and /ʊr/, being realized like 'TOUR', while many NAE varieties merge 'POOR' with 'NORTH' and 'FORCE' as /ɔr/ while leaving 'TOUR' unchanged as /ʊr/ (my mother does this, for instance).

* This could also be called 'PURE', but that is too close to 'POOR'.

I have a distinct vowel in ⟨cure⟩ [ɵː], but NORTH/FORCE/LAW¹ in all of ⟨sure⟩, ⟨poor⟩ and ⟨tour⟩. I need a [j] to cause it not to merge, and [ʃ] from earlier /sj/ doesn't count.

¹ I can't remember the official set for this. It's CAUGHT in the COT/CAUGHT merger

[jcb]

Ah, but you agree for a different reason. I do not have a raised PRICE, only a backed one. The similarity is only because my STRUT is lowered. It is phonetically something like [ɑ̽j], but since that is a pain to type, I just use /ʌj/.

Maybe my STRUT vowel is [V] and not [@]? I dunno. I don't distinguish them phonemically, so it's hard for me to tell.

I doubt I would even notice the difference between Chic/a/go and Chic/ɑ/go. Idk how Americans distinguish their eleven different back and/or low vowels.

Not all can. I'm CAUGHT-COT merged, so I have just two backish/lowish vowels: /A/ [A] for CAUGHT/COT/THOUGHT/LOT, and /@/ [@] for CUT/STRUT.

This is off-topic, but 'CURE' is a purported lexical set I really don't like. For instance, it can really be split into three different lexical sets, which I will call 'SURE'*, 'POOR', and 'TOUR'.

Or four, like for me:
- SURE, NURSE = /r=/
- POOR, NORTH = /or/
- TOUR = /u.r=/ (two syllables)
- CURE, PEER = /ir/

[Arzena]

There are some place names in America that are pronounced differently in the place that they refer to, or alternatively: There are some place names in America that are habitually pronounced incorrectly outside of the place that they refer to.


Can you think of any other examples? (Other languages are welcome too.)

In Austin, TX, the street named Guadalupe has the pronunciation [gwa.ɾə.lup] that marks you as a local compared to the standard Anglacized pronunciation of <Guadalupe> /gwa.ɾə.lu.peɪ/. There is another street with a name derived from a Spanish placename that has been similarly clipped: San Jacinto as [sæn.dʒæk].

[Travis B.]

There is a street in Milwaukee named Teutonia, which in the dialect here is pronounced /taɪˈtoʊnjə/ [tʰăĕ̯ˈtʰø̞̃ːnjə(ː)]* or /təɪˈtoʊnjə/ [tʰə̆ĕ̯ˈtʰø̞̃ːnjə(ː)]* (both pronunciations feel right to me, but I would favor the former if speaking carefully). This is completely non-obvious to non-locals. My guess is the name is influenced by German dialects in which the historical equivalent to StG /ɔʏ/ has merged with the historical equivalent to StG /aɪ/ as an unrounded diphthong. (These sorts of pronounciations can be heard in things ranging from Anh/aɪ/ser-Busch to the name Pr/aɪ/ssler..)

* Yes, I'm sure these have rounded front vowels. However, you might differ if you heard them recorded, as they don't sound much like, say, StG [øː].

[äreo]

There's a New Athens /nuː ˈeɪθənz/ in Southern Illinois. Also the Augustine in St. Augustine, FL is pronounced by Floridians as /ˈɔːɡəˌstiːn/ but if you pronounce the saint's name that way to certain learnèd men they may have a chuckle at you.

There are some place names in America that are pronounced differently in the place that they refer to, or alternatively: There are some place names in America that are habitually pronounced incorrectly outside of the place that they refer to.


Can you think of any other examples? (Other languages are welcome too.)

In Austin, TX, the street named Guadalupe has the pronunciation [gwa.ɾə.lup] that marks you as a local compared to the standard Anglacized pronunciation of <Guadalupe> /gwa.ɾə.lu.peɪ/. There is another street with a name derived from a Spanish placename that has been similarly clipped: San Jacinto as [sæn.dʒæk].

There's also /ˈmæn(t)ʃæk/ for Menchaca. Also more broadly some old-school Texas tells are /ˈkaɪoʊt/ for coyote andˌ/ɹiːoʊˈɡɹænd/ for Rio Grande.

There is a street in Milwaukee named Teutonia, which in the dialect here is pronounced /taɪˈtoʊnjə/ [tʰăĕ̯ˈtʰø̞̃ːnjə(ː)]* or /təɪˈtoʊnjə/ [tʰə̆ĕ̯ˈtʰø̞̃ːnjə(ː)]* (both pronunciations feel right to me, but I would favor the former if speaking carefully). This is completely non-obvious to non-locals. My guess is the name is influenced by German dialects in which the historical equivalent to StG /ɔʏ/ has merged with the historical equivalent to StG /aɪ/ as an unrounded diphthong. (These sorts of pronounciations can be heard in things ranging from Anh/aɪ/ser-Busch to the name Pr/aɪ/ssler..)

* Yes, I'm sure these have rounded front vowels. However, you might differ if you heard them recorded, as they don't sound much like, say, StG [øː].

I'm not sure how this happened but my father and his mother both have /aɪ/ in hoist.