Phonemes for Azoi

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

No I don’t, because if that ever did happen, it would have been way, way too far in the past to be accessible by any linguistic techniques. Or language could have evolved in a completely different way to this. We just have no idea whatsoever. All we can tell is that the oldest protolanguages we can reconstruct seem to be essentially similar to modern languages in their structure.

Okay, well let's just say that that's how languages evolved in the world where Azoi is used. From here forward, let’s assume that anything controversial I might say applies to Azoi and only Azoi. Assuming this, Azoi has to be a really old language, thus requiring a really long timeline of natural changes applied to it.

Obligatory typo service: not that it really matters, but I think you meant conlang here, since Azoi is not a natural language, and it bugged me enough to mention it.

Yes, my apologies. I should’ve said ‘conlang’ here, I must have had a brainfart. I suppose I was trying to refer to the idea that Azoi is an artlang that mimics being natural.

To me these statements seem contradictory. If you want Azoi to be naturalistic, it would make sense to give it a history similar to that known from natlangs. And if you want Azoi to have a different history, such that it evolved (comparatively) recently from pre-language, then I feel that that would logically lead to it having some differences to the languages we know of on Earth. But I don’t see how it makes sense to give it an unnaturalistic history yet expect it to end up similar to natural languages.

[EDIT: rereading, the first version of this post came out harsher than I intended, sorry; have toned it down a bit]

no need to apologize.

while I do want Azoi to seem like it evolved naturalistically, I intend to use it in a conworld separate from Earth, and thus, as long as the conworld's history is rooted well enough and Azoi sticks to this fake history, it remain believable. (this actually works more in favor of the storytelling I intend on going for.) I apologize for not specifying this better earlier. I could come up with a few examples of this, but it is late where I am and I am too tired to think much. shameless whining moment. so yes, while Azoi is intended to be similar to natlangs, there will be some areas that I will be tweaking a bit in order to make it feel slightly otherworldly. more on that topic when it becomes necessary.

while on the topic of conlang history, are there examples of other's naturalistic histories for their conlangs that they would be willing to provide for my reference? if so it would be greatly appreciated.

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

also, as a small celebratory moment for me, this post just hit two pages! huzzah for Azoi!

ok now back to what we were doing. sorry.

[bradrn]

so yes, while Azoi is intended to be similar to natlangs, there will be some areas that I will be tweaking a bit in order to make it feel slightly otherworldly. more on that topic when it becomes necessary.

In that case I’d be curious to know more — what kinds of non-naturalistic properties are you considering for Azoi?

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

so yes, while Azoi is intended to be similar to natlangs, there will be some areas that I will be tweaking a bit in order to make it feel slightly otherworldly. more on that topic when it becomes necessary.

In that case I’d be curious to know more — what kinds of non-naturalistic properties are you considering for Azoi?

while I'm not entirely certain yet, as I have just recently started a legitimate project for the vague 3 years of ideation that is the conlang Azoi, I originally intended Azoi to be a spoken and written language for a personal fantastical race of human-like-things called the Azośëng (/æzoɬəŋ/) in a to-be-named planet in a fantasy conworld separate from Earth (which doesn't have contact with earth so idk why that matters). the Azośëng are like a cross between elves and humans (but didn't originate by crossbreeding idrk what I was thinking 3 years ago), in the sense that they are graceful and magic-using like elves but tough and power-hungry like humans. there's actually like a lot lot more lore behind this, but it's all on paper and it may take more time than I have tonight to transcribe it down here. let me know in the morning (in about 10-12 hours if you don't live in american mountain time). if you'd like to know more about it.

as for now, though, I must be off to my bed, as it is currently 10:14 here.

edit: 10:14 pm.

[bradrn]

let me know in the morning (in about 10-12 hours if you don't live in american mountain time)

Note that phpBB is quite different to a chat program (like e.g. Discord) — conversations here are asynchronous as often as they’re synchronous. We have lots of Americans, but I’m in Australia and many others are in Europe or elsewhere; generally people just post things and others just reply if or when they feel like it.

All of which is to say: don’t worry about times too much! Just post stuff when it’s convenient for you.

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

let me know in the morning (in about 10-12 hours if you don't live in american mountain time)

Note that phpBB is quite different to a chat program (like e.g. Discord) — conversations here are asynchronous as often as they’re synchronous. We have lots of Americans, but I’m in Australia and many others are in Europe or elsewhere; generally people just post things and others just reply if or when they feel like it.

All of which is to say: don’t worry about times too much! Just post stuff when it’s convenient for you.

understood!

[sasasha]

Belatedly, welcome!

I’m posting bradrn’s table here as code for you to unpick, if you wish. I’ve formatted it with line spaces between the rows to make it a bit clearer what’s going on. There’s not much documentation on how to make tables on here, so you may find it useful.

Code: Select all

[table]

[rowh][cell][/cell][cell]Bilabial[/cell][cell]Alveolar[/cell][cell]Postalveolar[/cell][cell]Palatal[/cell][cell]Velar[/cell][cell]Glottal[/cell][/rowh]

[row][cellh]Nasal[/cellh][cell]m[/cell][cell]n[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]ɲ[/cell][cell]ŋ[/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Stop[/cellh][cell]p b[/cell][cell]t d[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]c[/cell][cell]k[/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Fricative[/cellh][cell]ɸ[/cell][cell]s z ɬ[/cell][cell]ʃ[/cell][cell]ç[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]h[/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Approximant[/cellh][cell][/cell][cell]ɹ l[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]j ʎ[/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Tap/flap[/cellh][cell]ⱱ[/cell][cell]ɾ[/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[/table]

• Every row starts with [row] and ends with [/row].
• Every cell is likewise enclosed in [cell][/cell].
• The last example produces a blank cell. To put something in the cell it goes in between the cell operators, e.g. [cell]something[/cell].
• If you want the dark blue background colour (e.g. for headers), it appears with [rowh] (for a whole row) and [cellh] (for individual cells), which have to be closed by [/rowh] and [/cellh] respectively.
• Tips: if you know how many columns you want before you start, it’s probably gonna be easier than if you don’t. Try quoting other people’s stuff to learn how they formatted it. Preview is your friend.

May your tables endure forever.

[bradrn]

There’s not much documentation on how to make tables on here, so you may find it useful.

Well, now there is!

Less flippantly, the table syntax is almost exactly the same as that of HTML, so perhaps people thought it would be obvious.

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

Belatedly, welcome!

I’m posting bradrn’s table here as code for you to unpick, if you wish. I’ve formatted it with line spaces between the rows to make it a bit clearer what’s going on. There’s not much documentation on how to make tables on here, so you may find it useful.

Code: Select all

[table]

[rowh][cell][/cell][cell]Bilabial[/cell][cell]Alveolar[/cell][cell]Postalveolar[/cell][cell]Palatal[/cell][cell]Velar[/cell][cell]Glottal[/cell][/rowh]

[row][cellh]Nasal[/cellh][cell]m[/cell][cell]n[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]ɲ[/cell][cell]ŋ[/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Stop[/cellh][cell]p b[/cell][cell]t d[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]c[/cell][cell]k[/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Fricative[/cellh][cell]ɸ[/cell][cell]s z ɬ[/cell][cell]ʃ[/cell][cell]ç[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]h[/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Approximant[/cellh][cell][/cell][cell]ɹ l[/cell][cell][/cell][cell]j ʎ[/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[row][cellh]Tap/flap[/cellh][cell]ⱱ[/cell][cell]ɾ[/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][cell][/cell][/row]

[/table]

• Every row starts with [row] and ends with [/row].
• Every cell is likewise enclosed in [cell][/cell].
• The last example produces a blank cell. To put something in the cell it goes in between the cell operators, e.g. [cell]something[/cell].
• If you want the dark blue background colour (e.g. for headers), it appears with [rowh] (for a whole row) and [cellh] (for individual cells), which have to be closed by [/rowh] and [/cellh] respectively.
• Tips: if you know how many columns you want before you start, it’s probably gonna be easier than if you don’t. Try quoting other people’s stuff to learn how they formatted it. Preview is your friend.

May your tables endure forever.

so then, I would make a table like so?

finalized Azoi consonants with romanization:

	Bilabial	Labiodental	Dental	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Palatal	Velar
Plosive	p, b			t, d		c, g /ɟ/	k
Nasal	m			n		ñ /ɲ/	ng /ŋ/
Tap or Flap		v̇ /ⱱ/		ṙ /ɾ/
Fricative	ph /ɸ/, vh /β/	f, v	th /θ/	s, z	sh /ʃ/, zh /ʒ/	ĉ /ç/, ŷ /ʝ/	x
Lateral Fricative				ś /ɬ/
Approximant				r /ɹ/		y /j/	w
Lateral Approximant				l		ý /ʎ/

that took a lot longer than I wanted it to.

There’s not much documentation on how to make tables on here, so you may find it useful.

Well, now there is!

Less flippantly, the table syntax is almost exactly the same as that of HTML, so perhaps people thought it would be obvious.

I did notice that the code is pretty similar to HTML, what with repeating the function with a '/' at the end of it to signal at the end of it, but it still hurts to look at and try and comprehend though, I've got a fat headache right now.

[sasasha]

that took a lot longer than I wanted it to.

It’s good, though!

I did notice that the code is pretty similar to HTML, what with repeating the function with a '/' at the end of it to signal at the end of it, but it still hurts to look at and try and comprehend though, I've got a fat headache right now.

Oof, sorry. There’s no pressure, I just thought I should do something to fix the lack of instructions as to how to do it, as you’d mentioned you didn’t know how.

It does become second nature if you do it a lot. I actually have a lot of BBCode keyboard shortcuts set up (well, truthfully it’s a custom keyboard I created via an app called Keyboard Designer). So when I want [cell] I just swipe left on c, sort of thing.

I can share the keyboard if anyone is interested, though I recommend making your own; it’s a great, free, solo developer app that is v useful for conlanging.

[bradrn]

It does become second nature if you do it a lot. I actually have a lot of BBCode keyboard shortcuts set up (well, truthfully it’s a custom keyboard I created via an app called Keyboard Designer). So when I want [cell] I just swipe left on c, sort of thing.

On a desktop, phpBB itself provides some shortcuts: on Firefox the main ones are Alt+Shift+I for italics, Alt+Shift+B for bold and Alt+Shift+U for underline. (I don’t recall there being any for tables though.)

[sasasha]

finalized Azoi consonants with romanization:

	Bilabial	Labiodental	Dental	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Palatal	Velar
Plosive	p, b			t, d		c, g /ɟ/	k
Nasal	m			n		ñ /ɲ/	ng /ŋ/
Tap or Flap		v̇ /ⱱ/		ṙ /ɾ/
Fricative	ph /ɸ/, vh /β/	f, v	th /θ/	s, z	sh /ʃ/, zh /ʒ/	ĉ /ç/, ŷ /ʝ/	x
Lateral Fricative				ś /ɬ/
Approximant				r /ɹ/		y /j/	w
Lateral Approximant				l		ý /ʎ/

It’s a bit strange to me that you have ⟨ph vh⟩ for /ɸ β/ and ⟨f v⟩ for /f v/. It’s fine if there’s a reason for it, but otherwise I would suggest it would be more logical if the ⟨h⟩ was doing the same job, so either ⟨ph bh⟩ or ⟨fh vh⟩. The problem is compounded by having so many labial/labiodental phonemes; I’m not sure there are natlangs with /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, though I might be wrong (and whether or not that matters is entirely up to you).

[malloc]

I’m not sure there are natlangs with /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, though I might be wrong (and whether or not that matters is entirely up to you).

The Ewe language has /ɸ β f v w/ at least.

[sasasha]

I’m not sure there are natlangs with /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, though I might be wrong (and whether or not that matters is entirely up to you).

The Ewe language has /ɸ β f v w/ at least.

Fairplay, though /w/ is /ɣ ~ ɰ ~ w/ and /f v/ are [f͈ v͈] ‒ Ewe seems to realise this is quite a lot of labials and it needs a bit of help for disambiguation. Not sure what throwing [ⱱ] into the mix too would do for the system’s balance.

[Travis B.]

Another area in which the consonants seem a bit, well, close together is having a four-way contrast between /j ʝ ɟ ʒ/ -- it is very common for some of [j ʝ ɟ ʒ] to be allophones of one another.

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

finalized Azoi consonants with romanization:

	Bilabial	Labiodental	Dental	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Palatal	Velar
Plosive	p, b			t, d		c, g /ɟ/	k
Nasal	m			n		ñ /ɲ/	ng /ŋ/
Tap or Flap		v̇ /ⱱ/		ṙ /ɾ/
Fricative	ph /ɸ/, vh /β/	f, v	th /θ/	s, z	sh /ʃ/, zh /ʒ/	ĉ /ç/, ŷ /ʝ/	x
Lateral Fricative				ś /ɬ/
Approximant				r /ɹ/		y /j/	w
Lateral Approximant				l		ý /ʎ/

It’s a bit strange to me that you have ⟨ph vh⟩ for /ɸ β/ and ⟨f v⟩ for /f v/. It’s fine if there’s a reason for it, but otherwise I would suggest it would be more logical if the ⟨h⟩ was doing the same job, so either ⟨ph bh⟩ or ⟨fh vh⟩. The problem is compounded by having so many labial/labiodental phonemes; I’m not sure there are natlangs with /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, though I might be wrong (and whether or not that matters is entirely up to you).

Another area in which the consonants seem a bit, well, close together is having a four-way contrast between /j ʝ ɟ ʒ/ -- it is very common for some of [j ʝ ɟ ʒ] to be allophones of one another.

hmm. I did notice that it was somewhat difficult to switch between /j/, /ʝ/, and /ɟ/ in regular speech, although /ʒ/ feels more like it would be an allophone of /z/. I probably will just make /ʝ/ and /ɟ/ allophones of their voiceless variants(would that make any sense?). as for /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, I am a bit less concerned, although I could probably eliminate /f/ and /β/, and possibly make them allophones of /ɸ/ and /v/, respectively.

So, here is the new finalized chart of Azoi consonants with romanization:

	Bilabial	Labiodental	Dental	Alveolar	Postalveolar	Palatal	Velar
Plosive	p, b			t, d		c	k
Nasal	m			n		ñ /ɲ/	ng /ŋ/
Tap or Flap		v̇ /ⱱ/		ṙ /ɾ/
Fricative	f /ɸ/	v	th /θ/	s, z	sh /ʃ/	ĉ /ç/	h /x/
Lateral Fricative				ś /ɬ/
Approximant				r /ɹ/		y /j/	w
Lateral Approximant				l		ý /ʎ/

Does this solve the issues you guys pointed out? Let me know if you see any more.

It does become second nature if you do it a lot. I actually have a lot of BBCode keyboard shortcuts set up (well, truthfully it’s a custom keyboard I created via an app called Keyboard Designer). So when I want [cell] I just swipe left on c, sort of thing.

On a desktop, phpBB itself provides some shortcuts: on Firefox the main ones are Alt+Shift+I for italics, Alt+Shift+B for bold and Alt+Shift+U for underline. (I don’t recall there being any for tables though.)

Unfortunately, I tend to draft my posts on a google doc.

[Travis B.]

Another area in which the consonants seem a bit, well, close together is having a four-way contrast between /j ʝ ɟ ʒ/ -- it is very common for some of [j ʝ ɟ ʒ] to be allophones of one another.

hmm. I did notice that it was somewhat difficult to switch between /j/, /ʝ/, and /ɟ/ in regular speech, although /ʒ/ feels more like it would be an allophone of /z/. I probably will just make /ʝ/ and /ɟ/ allophones of their voiceless variants(would that make any sense?). as for /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, I am a bit less concerned, although I could probably eliminate /f/ and /β/, and possibly make them allophones of /ɸ/ and /v/, respectively.

Another option to consider is to have two voiced palatal phonemes, /j ɟ/ and have [ʝ] be an allophone of one or the other. I feel that keeping /ʒ/ as a separate phoneme is fine as long as one does not also have /ʝ/ plus both /j ɟ/ (one thing to remember that there are languages with a three-way contrast between /ʐ ʑ j/ such as Polish).

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

Another area in which the consonants seem a bit, well, close together is having a four-way contrast between /j ʝ ɟ ʒ/ -- it is very common for some of [j ʝ ɟ ʒ] to be allophones of one another.

hmm. I did notice that it was somewhat difficult to switch between /j/, /ʝ/, and /ɟ/ in regular speech, although /ʒ/ feels more like it would be an allophone of /z/. I probably will just make /ʝ/ and /ɟ/ allophones of their voiceless variants(would that make any sense?). as for /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, I am a bit less concerned, although I could probably eliminate /f/ and /β/, and possibly make them allophones of /ɸ/ and /v/, respectively.

Another option to consider is to have two voiced palatal phonemes, /j ɟ/ and have [ʝ] be an allophone of one or the other. I feel that keeping /ʒ/ as a separate phoneme is fine as long as one does not also have /ʝ/ plus both /j ɟ/ (one thing to remember that there are languages with a three-way contrast between /ʐ ʑ j/ such as Polish).

I suppose that this might make more sense. would it make sense to have /j ɟ/ both allophone to [ʝ] and have /c/ = [ɟ] and /ç/ = [ɟ]? if so, would I just re-add /ɟ/ to the phonemes list to make it like so?

[Travis B.]

hmm. I did notice that it was somewhat difficult to switch between /j/, /ʝ/, and /ɟ/ in regular speech, although /ʒ/ feels more like it would be an allophone of /z/. I probably will just make /ʝ/ and /ɟ/ allophones of their voiceless variants(would that make any sense?). as for /ɸ β f v ⱱ w/, I am a bit less concerned, although I could probably eliminate /f/ and /β/, and possibly make them allophones of /ɸ/ and /v/, respectively.

Another option to consider is to have two voiced palatal phonemes, /j ɟ/ and have [ʝ] be an allophone of one or the other. I feel that keeping /ʒ/ as a separate phoneme is fine as long as one does not also have /ʝ/ plus both /j ɟ/ (one thing to remember that there are languages with a three-way contrast between /ʐ ʑ j/ such as Polish).

I suppose that this might make more sense. would it make sense to have /j ɟ/ both allophone to [ʝ] and have /c/ = [ɟ] and /ç/ = [ɟ]? if so, would I just re-add /ɟ/ to the phonemes list to make it like so?

What conditions would you have /j ɟ/ neutralize under, and what conditions would you have /ɟ c ç/ neutralize under?

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

Another option to consider is to have two voiced palatal phonemes, /j ɟ/ and have [ʝ] be an allophone of one or the other. I feel that keeping /ʒ/ as a separate phoneme is fine as long as one does not also have /ʝ/ plus both /j ɟ/ (one thing to remember that there are languages with a three-way contrast between /ʐ ʑ j/ such as Polish).

I suppose that this might make more sense. would it make sense to have /j ɟ/ both allophone to [ʝ] and have /c/ = [ɟ] and /ç/ = [ɟ]? if so, would I just re-add /ɟ/ to the phonemes list to make it like so?

What conditions would you have /j ɟ/ neutralize under, and what conditions would you have /ɟ c ç/ neutralize under?

probably something alongside /c ç/ becoming voiced when placed between vowels and other voiced consonants, e. g. /æcʊ/ would become [æɟʊ], or /ɹçɲ/ becomes [ɹʝɲ], and so on. (note that Azoi isn't so complex as to allow for such a consonant cluster, this is just an example.) as for /j ɟ/ becoming [ʝ], I'd imagine they would do so when placed adjacent to other fricative sounds, so /ʒja/ = [ʒʝa] and so forth.