United States Politics Thread 47

[malloc]

More like blaming Russian disinformation agents for spreading defeatism.

If you're looking for praise or payment, please see your Russian handler. And could you ask them to send a better class of provocateur? It's right embarrassing that we don't deserve better.

What does that even mean? Are you accusing me of convincing all those corporations to drop DEI or Chuck Schumer to vote for the continuing resolution? I am hardly spreading defeatism, only observing the obvious fact that defeat has already occurred. Trump has smashed the institutions of liberalism and begun the process of filling the government with loyalists. Corporations have stopped sponsoring pride events or pretending to care about social justice more generally. Public opinion has enthusiastically embrace the MAGA agenda with Trump enjoying soaring approval ratings. Should I simply ignore all those developments and imagine that any day now, public opinion will turn against Trump and reactionary politics more generally and the MAGA regime will graciously allow elections that vote it out?

[rotting bones]

Disapproval is still rising: https://www.natesilver.net/p/trump-appr ... r-bulletin

The only difference is that the largest number of people think the country is on the right track than anyone has in years. Even that group is not an actual majority.

[Travis B.]

More like blaming Russian disinformation agents for spreading defeatism.

If you're looking for praise or payment, please see your Russian handler. And could you ask them to send a better class of provocateur? It's right embarrassing that we don't deserve better.

What does that even mean? Are you accusing me of convincing all those corporations to drop DEI or Chuck Schumer to vote for the continuing resolution? I am hardly spreading defeatism, only observing the obvious fact that defeat has already occurred. Trump has smashed the institutions of liberalism and begun the process of filling the government with loyalists. Corporations have stopped sponsoring pride events or pretending to care about social justice more generally. Public opinion has enthusiastically embrace the MAGA agenda with Trump enjoying soaring approval ratings. Should I simply ignore all those developments and imagine that any day now, public opinion will turn against Trump and reactionary politics more generally and the MAGA regime will graciously allow elections that vote it out?

Thing is, people don't like what Trump and Musk are doing. Republicans are now being warned to not hold "town hall" events because when they do they are facing significant opposition even in deep red country. People who voted for Trump are now wondering about how the promises that sold them on Trump are not being held to.

Sure, there are some polls which claim support for some of Trump's policies such as his tariffs, but the matter is that these polls frequently are constructed with the goal of pulling support for Trump out of thin air in the first place. They do this by doing things like focusing on China and downplaying the fact that tariffs are a tax on products Americans buy. His tariffs are far less popular when questions are posed that specifically mention tariffs as being taxes.

[rotting bones]

What do you think of the right direction poll I posted earlier? https://www.axios.com/2025/03/16/trump- ... w-new-poll

[Travis B.]

What do you think of the right direction poll I posted earlier? https://www.axios.com/2025/03/16/trump- ... w-new-poll

I bet that that is from MAGAts who are enamored with their Great Leader and who think he is taking the US in the right direction rather than any broad support for what Trump is doing.

As for the unpopularity of the Dems, that I think is specifically because the Dems aren't doing enough to fight Trump rather than out of love for Trump.

[keenir]

Sounds like people here are finally getting it,

you mean like this?...

My thoughts exactly. Trump is as bad or even worse than anyone expected but here's something encouraging though in seeing him or his cronies fail miserably in most everything they try; as in, for instance, naming the wrong FBI director.

after weeks of denouncing me as an overly pessimistic doomer.

which you were and hopefully no longer are.

Some sheepish apologies are in order.

Feel free to say you're sorry as much as you like

[keenir]

BTW, Trump administration removes ban on 'segregated facilities' in federal contracts:
https://ground.news/article/segregated- ... room-share

Where are segregated facilities likely to crop up?

all i can picture, is making sure everyone uses the unisex bathrooms, rather than have one for Men and one for Women.

...which, one would think, would make it easier for Trump's horror of "men in womens bathrooms" to come true.

Sounds like people here are finally getting it, after weeks of denouncing me as an overly pessimistic doomer. Some sheepish apologies are in order.

I think so too. When can we expect your apology for spreading despair and nonresistance against fascism?

You might as well blame Cassandra for the fall of Troy.

Are you implying that you have been repeating the same laments so often that the rest of us have internalized it and were subconciously ensuring you had a self-fufilling prophecy? wow, just wow, thats major ego there.

[zompist]

More like blaming Russian disinformation agents for spreading defeatism.

If you're looking for praise or payment, please see your Russian handler. And could you ask them to send a better class of provocateur? It's right embarrassing that we don't deserve better.

What does that even mean? Are you accusing me of convincing all those corporations to drop DEI or Chuck Schumer to vote for the continuing resolution? I am hardly spreading defeatism, only observing the obvious fact that defeat has already occurred.

Yeah, that's defeatism, and you are a propagandist for fascism. You are giving the Republicans exactly what they want: premature victory.

This editorial may or may not resonate, but the headline is great: "Authoritarians Like Trump Love Fear, Defeatism, Surrender. Do Not Give Them What They Want".

You are not some kind of perceptive person who has seen things others have not. We've all seen what's going on. You've just given up, so you are spreading your defeatism and rolling over for the fascists. That is literally the Russian disinformation playbook. The only difference is that the Russian content farms are paid, and you're spreading defeatism for free.

[malloc]

Yeah, that's defeatism, and you are a propagandist for fascism. You are giving the Republicans exactly what they want: premature victory.

This editorial may or may not resonate, but the headline is great: "Authoritarians Like Trump Love Fear, Defeatism, Surrender. Do Not Give Them What They Want".

You are not some kind of perceptive person who has seen things others have not. We've all seen what's going on. You've just given up, so you are spreading your defeatism and rolling over for the fascists. That is literally the Russian disinformation playbook. The only difference is that the Russian content farms are paid, and you're spreading defeatism for free.

Then you need to explain how the small and shrinking minority opposed to MAGA can turn the tide against overwhelming odds and indeed why such an outcome is reasonably likely. Currently the MAGA movement seems to have every advantage from decisive and ever expanding dominance of the media (and thus public opinion) to tens of millions of heavily armed supporters across the country. It would take a remarkable series of events for all that to disappear and allow opposition to succeed.

[bradrn]

Yeah, that's defeatism, and you are a propagandist for fascism. You are giving the Republicans exactly what they want: premature victory.

This editorial may or may not resonate, but the headline is great: "Authoritarians Like Trump Love Fear, Defeatism, Surrender. Do Not Give Them What They Want".

You are not some kind of perceptive person who has seen things others have not. We've all seen what's going on. You've just given up, so you are spreading your defeatism and rolling over for the fascists. That is literally the Russian disinformation playbook. The only difference is that the Russian content farms are paid, and you're spreading defeatism for free.

Then you need to explain how the small and shrinking minority opposed to MAGA can turn the tide against overwhelming odds and indeed why such an outcome is reasonably likely.

Because it is not a ‘small and shrinking minority’.

[keenir]

Yeah, that's defeatism, and you are a propagandist for fascism. You are giving the Republicans exactly what they want: premature victory.

This editorial may or may not resonate, but the headline is great: "Authoritarians Like Trump Love Fear, Defeatism, Surrender. Do Not Give Them What They Want".

You are not some kind of perceptive person who has seen things others have not. We've all seen what's going on. You've just given up, so you are spreading your defeatism and rolling over for the fascists. That is literally the Russian disinformation playbook. The only difference is that the Russian content farms are paid, and you're spreading defeatism for free.

Then you need to explain how the small and shrinking minority opposed to MAGA

everyone is turning against MAGA...even the MAGA.

can turn the tide against overwhelming odds and indeed why such an outcome is reasonably likely. Currently the MAGA movement seems to

...be all you pay attention to, which gives you perception bias.

have every advantage from decisive and ever expanding dominance of the media (and thus public opinion)

if "dominance of the media" automatically causes rule of&over public opinion, then how did we get the Tea Party and MAGA at the sizes we did, since they did not used to rule the media. (and they still don't rule the media -they ARE louder media, which is different)

to tens of millions of heavily armed supporters across the country.

are these the same tens of millions of heavily armed supporters...who are presently screaming at Republicans in Town Halls across the USA that Trump and Musk are ruining everything??

looks like it.

It would take a remarkable series of events for all that to disappear and allow opposition to succeed.

yes, it seems it would take a Trump presidency.

wait...yup.

[malloc]

everyone is turning against MAGA...even the MAGA.

Not really. Trump currently enjoys an all-time high in popular support. He won reëlection with a much greater margin than his previous two elections and his approval ratings are much higher as well. Certainly some people have expressed disappointment with Trump but that hardly constitutes everyone turning against him. If his approval ratings fall to twenty percent, that would qualify as even MAGA supporters rejecting him, but currently we have the opposite situation of former liberals embracing him.

if "dominance of the media" automatically causes rule of&over public opinion, then how did we get the Tea Party and MAGA at the sizes we did, since they did not used to rule the media. (and they still don't rule the media -they ARE louder media, which is different)

The right wing in America has wielded a formidable media apparatus for decades, everything from Fox News to talk radio. Well before MAGA even emerged, the right wing media was agitating for the impeachment of Clinton, the invasion of Iraq, and resistance to universal healthcare. Before there was Joe Rogan turning untold millions of young men far right, there was Rush Limbaugh on talk radio.

Now however, the right is rapidly gaining control over the entire media landscape. Every major media outlet either endorses right with politics outright or gives right wingers equal time and sympathetic coverage. Even once staunchly liberal firms like the Washington Post and Disney have embraced a conservative line. Yet people here seem to imagine this overwhelming media dominance would have no effect on public opinion. Some will argue that plenty of niche media still opposes the right, but realistically the average person is not getting their news from such media.

[keenir]

everyone is turning against MAGA...even the MAGA.

Not really. Trump currently enjoys an all-time high in popular support.

...for Trump, yes. for US Presidents in general, no.

if I say "this is my finest conlang ever"...I am referring to in comparison with my other conlangs, not in comparison to the conlangs of other conlangers.

He won reëlection with a much greater margin than his previous two elections and his approval ratings are much higher as well.

they were. they keep going down when he tanks the economy, takes an axe to a government organization that people need, etc.

Certainly some people have expressed disappointment with Trump but that hardly constitutes everyone turning against him.

if the proverbial theater were on fire, I'm suspecting you'd put on a sweater.

If his approval ratings fall to twenty percent, that would qualify as even MAGA supporters rejecting him, but currently we have the opposite situation of former liberals embracing him.

both can be true.

if "dominance of the media" automatically causes rule of&over public opinion, then how did we get the Tea Party and MAGA at the sizes we did, since they did not used to rule the media. (and they still don't rule the media -they ARE louder media, which is different)

The right wing in America has wielded a formidable media apparatus for decades, everything from Fox News to talk radio. Well before MAGA even emerged, the right wing media was agitating for the impeachment of Clinton, the invasion of Iraq, and resistance to universal healthcare.

everybody was calling for Iraq, to be fair.

Now however, the right is rapidly gaining control over the entire media landscape.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Every major media outlet either endorses right with politics outright or gives right wingers equal time and sympathetic coverage.

equal time...thats supposed to be part of the "fair and balanced" that media were supposed to aspire to.

sympathetic? i'm not sure you know the word.

Even once staunchly liberal firms like the Washington Post and Disney have embraced a conservative line. Yet people here seem to imagine this overwhelming media dominance would have no effect on public opinion.

if you believe that, then not only have you not been paying attention to the media, but you haven't been paying attention in the forum.

Some will argue that plenty of niche media still opposes the right, but realistically the average person is not getting their news from such media.

the average person also isn't getting 100% of their news from FOXnews, either.

also, i'm not sure how you're defining "niche", given things like CNN and Youtube.

[alice]

Back in my days where I could legitimately call myself an "activist", I quickly learned that you had to work with people even if you deeply disagreed with their actual ideologies and like. I remember regularly coming to Peace Action meetings and dealing with a wide variety of people at the time. However, I eventually stormed out of a Peace Action meeting one day in protest and didn't come back when one of the major Milwaukee Green types tried to turn the Milwaukee branch into an organ of the local Green Party. (In retrospect it would probably have been more useful if I stayed and acted to help resist the attempted takeover of Peace Action Milwaukee.)

Maybe, or maybe you'd just have been frustrated for longer. Although there are effective organizations, it seems like activist groups are prone, over time, to get dominated by the argument-prone, who drive everyone else away.

Obvious reference: the Judaean People's Front.

Now, how serious is the abolition of the Department of Education? The end of government indoctrination, or abandoning millions of unprivileged children for good?

[zompist]

Now, how serious is the abolition of the Department of Education? The end of government indoctrination, or abandoning millions of unprivileged children for good?

The main purpose of the department, so far as I can see, is to give out money. In 2024 it spent $35b on Pell grants (which go to undergrads), $40b direct grants to elementary and secondary schools, $124b to universities, and an additional $62b in grants to states, which mostly go to elementary and secondary schools. The department oversees $1.7 trillion in student debt.

Education is basically run by the states— there is no federal control over the curriculum. Though apparently the Repubs want the nonexistent department to prohibit schools from addressing racism and sexism.

Only Congress can abolish departments, so the order actually directs the department to "take all necessary steps to facilitate the closure", whatever that means.

I suppose the goal is to end all that distribution of money. It's a nice example of an own goal: in general, redistributive programs send extra money to poor states... which mostly means Republican states. E.g. here's the amount of the education budget paid by the feds in several states:

New York (blue) - 7%
Illinois (blue) - 11%
California (very blue) - 14%
Florida (red) - 17%
Texas (red) - 18%
Louisiana (red) - 20%

Ultimately, conservatives hate education because it's dominated by liberals: about 58% of teachers identify as liberal, as opposed to about 25% of the population as a whole.

[jcb]

I suppose the goal is to end all that distribution of money. It's a nice example of an own goal: in general, redistributive programs send extra money to poor states... which mostly means Republican states. E.g. here's the amount of the education budget paid by the feds in several states:

But will any of this pain (even more so if social security gets deleted) actually make any red states turn blue? The conservative instinct when times are tough is to just blame your enemies and outsiders even more! I guess we'll find out in two/four years.

[malloc]

Ultimately, conservatives hate education because it's dominated by liberals: about 58% of teachers identify as liberal, as opposed to about 25% of the population as a whole.

Only twenty-five percent of Americans even endorse liberalism now? If that doesn't refute your incredible optimism, I can hardly imagine what would. It astounds me that you believe such a tiny proportion of the population can feasibly win elections or even resist the MAGA regime in any meaningful capacity.

[zompist]

Ultimately, conservatives hate education because it's dominated by liberals: about 58% of teachers identify as liberal, as opposed to about 25% of the population as a whole.

Only twenty-five percent of Americans even endorse liberalism now?

History lesson: what do you think the figure was in 1995?

Answer: half that.

Doesn't fit your narrative, does it? When do we get your sheepish apology?

[malloc]

History lesson: what do you think the figure was in 1995?

Answer: half that.

Doesn't fit your narrative, does it? When do we get your sheepish apology?

The point still stands. When the vast majority of Americans either support illiberal policies or couldn't care either way, there is no reason to expect liberals to win even fair and honest elections. How do you imagine a quarter of the population ousting this regime and enacting anything resembling progressive policies with so little popular support? You have an incredible level of faith in people who have consistently done nothing to deserve it.

[keenir]

Ultimately, conservatives hate education because it's dominated by liberals: about 58% of teachers identify as liberal, as opposed to about 25% of the population as a whole.

Only twenty-five percent of Americans even endorse liberalism now? If that doesn't refute your incredible optimism, I can hardly imagine what would. It astounds me that you believe such a tiny proportion of the population can feasibly win elections or even resist the MAGA regime in any meaningful capacity.

Care to explain why you presume everything is either "liberalism" or "MAGA"? shouldn't there be some percentage of None Of The Above?