Bringing Together some of my Ideas: A Semi-Utopian Future Earth

[zompist]

For some writers, what helps with this sort of thing is writing what movie people call a treatment. Think of it as an plot synopsis (such as you might find on Wikipedia), but about 6 to 10 pages long. No dialog, focus on plot. It should be detailed enough that you can't get by with something like "Then there's a big battle and Mr. Bad is defeated", you have to describe how that happens.

If you find you can't fill 10 pages with plot, that's a sign that you won't be able to fill 250 pages either— you need more things to happen.

Either prior to this or after this, it can help to work out character arcs. What do your people want, how do they change through the book? Ideally the plot provides the elements that make them do so.

Maybe it'd help to share some of my notes for "Diary of the Prose Wars" on a couple characters. These are not great examples but they're what I have on hand.

• Enirc - scientist and prose writer - not in Salon.
Voice: that of every Internet debater ever. Pedantic, sarcastic, impatient.
Friend of Reusune, later of Xayu and Wénéš.
Very dedicated to his cause; a bit humorless except for sarcasm. His lack of social skills is no asset to his cause.
Story arc: A prime mover in the agitation for the Salon of Prose, which to Enirc means scholarship. Alienates Reusune when Wéneš seems interested; later wins him back. At the end his cause wins but he is exiled; he’s just not artist material.

• Reusune - Academician in Music.
Witty, hedonistic, amoral. He sleeps with as many of his protégé(e)s as possible, male and female.
Story arc: Sympathetic to Prose, but values connections more and thus disapproves of Enirc’s tactless pivoting toward Wéneš. But is later moved by Mabri’s images and— again calling on connections— helps the idea of a new Salon along.

Note that these two characters are designed to annoy and impede each other, not on purpose but because their personalities and values are so different. Sometimes plotting is a matter of coming up with naturalistic reasons why Character X doesn't get what they want right away.

I suggested you read Forster's Aspects of the Novel, and the chapter on Plot is relevant here. And note, this stuff is hard. Ideally the plot and the character arcs look effortless— things happen, characters change in response, and it feels like real life. But as Forster notes, characters often don't cooperate with the plot, the author has to force things into place. But don't get too agitated about that. The intent of this exercise is to have an arc for each character, and use that to come up with plot points. Whether those are satisfying is a problem for Future You.

Everyone writes differently— some people are plotters, some people are pantsers, i.e. people who work "by the seat their pants", improvisationally and without a plan. But the fact that you got blocked trying to just write, suggest that you are probably not a pantser.

[/nɒtɛndəduːd/]

I didn't have the mind to read the info in the first couple replies (I'm more a fan of a finished product more rather than the behind-the-scenes that goes into it, which is why I don't write stories), but that said, the rough draft you've got going for your coming of age story is great so far IMO. I personally think that it's best to ask a writer what he might want next out of his story before giving one's own suggestions, so what might that be? that said, might I suggest that you spend a bit of time adding a bit more of an introduction to the story, so then when you come back to where you're at, you might be a bit refreshed? for me, most blocks come when you spend too long on one topic, but I don't know if the same is true for you.

once more, high praise for the story so far. coming of age stories have always intrigued me. hope you overcome your writer's block soon!

[rotting bones]

https://youtu.be/BVqYUaUO1cQ

[bradrn]

If you find you can't fill 10 pages with plot, that's a sign that you won't be able to fill 250 pages either— you need more things to happen.

On the other hand, it might make a good short story (a format to which I’m very partial).

Ah, 2573. That year. Everyone who's old enough remembers it. But most people remember it for the grand historical stuff that happened. Most important event in human history, or, at any rate, one of the top ten, and all that. And we'll get to that later, I promise. But let's just say that I have my owns reasons to remember that time.
I had turned 16 in May of that year, but things only got interesting in July, when school finished for the summer and I started my first serious summer job, doing odd jobs for Kontum NaB. Monday, the 19th of July was my first day on the job, and as it happened, that was also the day we were first contacted by the mysterious stranger. We kept calling him that, although he didn’t exactly stay mysterious for long.

Maybe this is unhelpful feedback, but I find this prose style exceptionally irritating. It’s hard to put my finger on exactly what annoys me, but I think there’s just too much chattiness and meandering. Each paragraph is short but talks about multiple different things, sometimes switching in the middle of a sentence. (As in ‘Monday … was my first day … that was also the day we were first contacted by the mysterious stranger’. Speaking of which, ‘mysterious stranger’ strikes me as being rather clichéd.) I think I see the intention — to narrate in a ‘conversational’ style — but it just isn’t working for me.

(Come to think of it, this sort of style is more difficult to pull off than it seems at first, especially in science fiction. I struggle to think of writers who’ve managed it really successfully. Perhaps some of the cyberpunk writers qualify, like William Gibson, but I haven’t read much of their work and in any case I dislike cyberpunk — in part due to precisely this style. Also Roger Zelazny and RA Lafferty come to mind, but the former switches between styles at the drop of a hat and the latter is probably inimitable.)

(Also: on the ZBB it’s easier to read with an extra newline between each paragraph!)

[Raphael]

Thank you for your feedback, everyone! As a first step, I plan to add paragraph breaks to the post. I'll try to get back to you once I'm done with that.

[Raphael]

One thing I'm wondering a bit about right now: Are there too many characters for two chapters? On my count, in what I've posted, there are nine characters with lines of dialogue, plus two characters who get mentioned but don't appear, and one character who's only seen in a news broadcast, for a total of twelve named characters. Well, I didn't want to have too much repetition in who's quoted as saying something.

For some writers, what helps with this sort of thing is writing what movie people call a treatment. Think of it as an plot synopsis (such as you might find on Wikipedia), but about 6 to 10 pages long. No dialog, focus on plot. It should be detailed enough that you can't get by with something like "Then there's a big battle and Mr. Bad is defeated", you have to describe how that happens.

Thank you. All I have in that regard so far is a list of the days of July and August with brief notes. I'll try to put more flesh on that skeleton.

Either prior to this or after this, it can help to work out character arcs. What do your people want, how do they change through the book? Ideally the plot provides the elements that make them do so.

Maybe it'd help to share some of my notes for "Diary of the Prose Wars" on a couple characters. These are not great examples but they're what I have on hand.

• Enirc - scientist and prose writer - not in Salon.
Voice: that of every Internet debater ever. Pedantic, sarcastic, impatient.
Friend of Reusune, later of Xayu and Wénéš.
Very dedicated to his cause; a bit humorless except for sarcasm. His lack of social skills is no asset to his cause.
Story arc: A prime mover in the agitation for the Salon of Prose, which to Enirc means scholarship. Alienates Reusune when Wéneš seems interested; later wins him back. At the end his cause wins but he is exiled; he’s just not artist material.

• Reusune - Academician in Music.
Witty, hedonistic, amoral. He sleeps with as many of his protégé(e)s as possible, male and female.
Story arc: Sympathetic to Prose, but values connections more and thus disapproves of Enirc’s tactless pivoting toward Wéneš. But is later moved by Mabri’s images and— again calling on connections— helps the idea of a new Salon along.

Note that these two characters are designed to annoy and impede each other, not on purpose but because their personalities and values are so different. Sometimes plotting is a matter of coming up with naturalistic reasons why Character X doesn't get what they want right away.

I do have a few ideas on various characters inside my head, but have written very little down so far.

I suggested you read Forster's Aspects of the Novel, and the chapter on Plot is relevant here. And note, this stuff is hard. Ideally the plot and the character arcs look effortless— things happen, characters change in response, and it feels like real life. But as Forster notes, characters often don't cooperate with the plot, the author has to force things into place.

That last part is one point where I'm not so sure. If characters don't naturally cooperate with the plot, isn't it better to tweak the plot than to make the characters do things they wouldn't usually do?

Everyone writes differently— some people are plotters, some people are pantsers,

I'd say I'm definately a plotter.

I didn't have the mind to read the info in the first couple replies (I'm more a fan of a finished product more rather than the behind-the-scenes that goes into it, which is why I don't write stories),

No problem, right now I'm mainly interested in people's reactions to the story, anyway.

that said, might I suggest that you spend a bit of time adding a bit more of an introduction to the story, so then when you come back to where you're at, you might be a bit refreshed?

To be honest, the relatively brief introduction is a result of me reading How Not to Write a Novel, specifically the part about how, if you have detailed descriptions of the main character's apartment, breakfast routine, pets, and usual interactions with their social circle at the start, before you get to anything related to the main plot, readers will quickly lose interest. That made me move the first mention of Recalde to a while before I might otherwise have introduced him.

once more, high praise for the story so far. coming of age stories have always intrigued me. hope you overcome your writer's block soon!

Thank you!

Speaking of which, ‘mysterious stranger’ strikes me as being rather clichéd.

You're right, of course. I'll try to think of a better nickname. Not sure that I can really change the conversational style of the first two paragraphs, though.

[zompist]

I suggested you read Forster's Aspects of the Novel, and the chapter on Plot is relevant here. And note, this stuff is hard. Ideally the plot and the character arcs look effortless— things happen, characters change in response, and it feels like real life. But as Forster notes, characters often don't cooperate with the plot, the author has to force things into place.

That last part is one point where I'm not so sure. If characters don't naturally cooperate with the plot, isn't it better to tweak the plot than to make the characters do things they wouldn't usually do?

Good question... yeah, characters shouldn't do something they "wouldn't do". But you have control over both elements, so the solution may be to adjust the plot. Though sometimes a character can surprise us.

You can't always get it all working in the first attempt.

[zompist]

If you find you can't fill 10 pages with plot, that's a sign that you won't be able to fill 250 pages either— you need more things to happen.

On the other hand, it might make a good short story (a format to which I’m very partial).

This is good advice, with a caveat.

Maybe you have 60 pages of story rather than 250 or 450. That's fine! Most of us start with short stories.

The caveat is that novels are easier to write, because you have so much more leeway for digressions or episodes or changes of pace. A short story should generally be more focused-- it's really a more advanced form of storytelling.

[bradrn]

The caveat is that novels are easier to write, because you have so much more leeway for digressions or episodes or changes of pace. A short story should generally be more focused-- it's really a more advanced form of storytelling.

Admittedly I’m no writer, but I’m not convinced that novels are ‘easier to write’ in general. I can think of many writers who excel in the short story form but wrote few novels, or who are know more for their short stories than their novels (the aforementioned RA Lafferty being one example). It leads me to think that any preference for writing one or another is highly personal.

(And really, what is a novel but ‘a more advanced form of storytelling’.)

[zompist]

The caveat is that novels are easier to write, because you have so much more leeway for digressions or episodes or changes of pace. A short story should generally be more focused-- it's really a more advanced form of storytelling.

Admittedly I’m no writer, but I’m not convinced that novels are ‘easier to write’ in general. I can think of many writers who excel in the short story form but wrote few novels, or who are know more for their short stories than their novels (the aforementioned RA Lafferty being one example). It leads me to think that any preference for writing one or another is highly personal.

Everything about writing is personal... all the rules can be broken, and no one should get discouraged if some writing advice rubs them the wrong way.

So, you could write a meandering, half-coherent short story.. or a novel where every word contributes to a single powerful experience... sure. Still, a short story is not just "a novel but shorter." It generally has to get going faster, whatever's not necessary should be cut, it generally needs to be one good idea rather than five. I do agree that some writers are better at one or the other... but that's an argument that the forms are different in some basic way!

[Ares Land]

I suspect the easier format is around 50,000 ~ 60,000 words.
That fits in with my experience... I've tried short stories and novels; none of these are really readable, but the least awful ones are short-ish novels.

Besides, a lot of first novels tend to gravitate around that word count. It probably helps that writing anything longer is difficult to schedule around a day job
That goes for the French market, though. You English speakers love doorstoppers

There's also not as much of a market for short stories.

You're right, of course. I'll try to think of a better nickname. Not sure that I can really change the conversational style of the first two paragraphs, though.

It's not what I'd expect from a published novel, but I think it's alright for a first draft. There are many writers that manage that conversational style (Stephen King comes to mind), but I suspect it takes a lot of rewriting, which isn't something you want to do right now.

One thing I'm wondering a bit about right now: Are there too many characters for two chapters? On my count, in what I've posted, there are nine characters with lines of dialogue, plus two characters who get mentioned but don't appear, and one character who's only seen in a news broadcast, for a total of twelve named characters. Well, I didn't want to have too much repetition in who's quoted as saying something.

I don't know if I'm the best example (see above re: unreadable novels), but I personally find it better to get on with the story, and rework as needed after the story is more or less complete.

[bradrn]

So, you could write a meandering, half-coherent short story.. or a novel where every word contributes to a single powerful experience... sure.

I got that latter experience from Le Guin’s The Dispossessed. It’s a pretty amazing book, and how she managed it is utterly beyond me. (Although I can identify some basic elements: point of view remains entirely with one character, certain symbols and metaphors appear repeatedly throughout, many chapters are largely self-contained, etc.)

Still, a short story is not just "a novel but shorter." It generally has to get going faster, whatever's not necessary should be cut, it generally needs to be one good idea rather than five. I do agree that some writers are better at one or the other... but that's an argument that the forms are different in some basic way!

Oh yes, completely agreed. They blend into each other, but they’re basically different forms which are structured differently and accomplish different things.

To be clear, I never meant to imply to Raphael anything like, ‘just chop it in half and exhibit it as a short story’ — I meant something more like, ‘consider whether it would work better as a short story and rewrite it with that aim if so’.

[Raphael]

I have some more thoughts on bradrn's feedback, after having thought about it for a while.

bradrn, I now plan to rewrite the opening paragraphs at some point. But whether that would, from your perspective, be an improvement might depend on how fundamental your problems with the opening are.

I want to use the first two or three paragraphs - everything after that is a different matter - to generally set the scene for the story, and not just to describe a specific situation. To use the distinction made by Mary Robinette Kowal in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brI_a_vsa_E - I want a "voice-driven" rather than an "action-driven" opening. I want to try to make the style less "conversational", but if you generally dislike voice-driven openings, I probably won't end up with something you would like.

[zompist]

To be clear, I never meant to imply to Raphael anything like, ‘just chop it in half and exhibit it as a short story’ — I meant something more like, ‘consider whether it would work better as a short story and rewrite it with that aim if so’.

Definitely a question worth asking. As is Ares Land's suggestion to think about novella length.

As new writers may not think in terms of word count, here are some baselines.

My story "The Rogues" is 7,700 words.
Raphael's book of essays is 30,000 words.
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is 45,000 words.
"The Hobbit" is 95,000 words.
LOTR is 480,000.

[Raphael]

As new writers may not think in terms of word count, here are some baselines.

My story "The Rogues" is 7,700 words.
Raphael's book of essays is 30,000 words.
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is 45,000 words.
"The Hobbit" is 95,000 words.
LOTR is 480,000.

Thank you! The Wikipedia entry on novellas claims the following word counts:

Albert Camus The Stranger 1942 36,750 words (I don't know which version they mean)

Ernest Hemingway The Old Man and the Sea 1952 26,601 words

Franz Kafka The Metamorphosis 1915 21,810 words (I don't know which version they mean)

George Orwell Animal Farm 1945 30,000 words

John Steinbeck Of Mice and Men 1937 29,160 words

I think I might try to just barely get above the upper length limit for novellas under the longest definitions, though, so perhaps I'll shoot for above 40,000.

[bradrn]

bradrn, I now plan to rewrite the opening paragraphs at some point. But whether that would, from your perspective, be an improvement might depend on how fundamental your problems with the opening are.

I want to use the first two or three paragraphs - everything after that is a different matter - to generally set the scene for the story, and not just to describe a specific situation. To use the distinction made by Mary Robinette Kowal in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brI_a_vsa_E - I want a "voice-driven" rather than an "action-driven" opening. I want to try to make the style less "conversational", but if you generally dislike voice-driven openings, I probably won't end up with something you would like.

Oh, I have no problem with voice-driven openings or even stories in general — in fact I somewhat dislike having too much action. (I’ve mentioned loving Le Guin’s writings before; she is strongly voice-driven.) It’s just the specific style that annoys me. And whether the overall style is really something you want to change or not is of course up to you: no-one else seems to have minded it.

[Ares Land]

I wouldn't fret too much about style right now.
It's all right if a first draft is a bit rough.

Albert Camus described a trap to avoid in The Plague: he has a character endlessly rewriting the first line of his novel.

Stephen King occasionally does the kind of opening you have in mind (one example that comes to mind is the opening chapter of Christine.) It looks effortless, and I don't know how he does it either -- but it certainly involves trying out different versions.