Popular culture in historical times

[bradrn]

so classical western scales *were* frameworks for improvisation just like maqams and ragas are, they just stopped being so more because western classical stopped improvising than because of any inherent difference.

I don’t agree with this. We don’t have a continuing practice of classical improvisation, but I have some knowledge of jazz improvisation: and there the overarching framework is not the scale but the ‘changes’, i.e. the sequence of chords which defines that song. The improvisor is expected to make the notes played at any one time fit the chord played by the rest of the band at that time (which is where scales come in — each chord is associated with a scale delineating which notes are suitable there), but they’re also expected to move smoothly from one chord to the next, in a situation where the chord can change each bar or even twice or thrice in a bar. This later requirement is what gives structure to jazz improvisation: for instance if I see a ii-V-I progression, I know that are specific melodic phrases which I can play over that, and the same with any other chord progression. It’s also what makes it so difficult: I can improvise endlessly in a single scale, even with minimal experience of playing melodic instruments; but give me an actual song to improvise to and I’m lost within minutes.

(Of course classical harmony is somewhat different to jazz harmony: but I expect the same principle applied to classical music, of ensuring that one’s improvisation fit with the overall chord progression.)

I ran my post by someone who knows a bit about Indian musical theory (albeit Carnatic more than Hindustani), and he said that this isn’t entirely true of all ragas — some are very much less restrictive with few emotional connotations, working very much like Western scales. But there are definitely many ragas which are much more restrictive, in a way which is foreign to Western musical concepts.

Did he name one?

Yes, raga Abheri. He showed me the following three songs, each in Abheri, and each with a different emotional tone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ5abjEF15A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mZOJBvcOL0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPkQlc9wv8E

[rotting bones]

Yes, raga Abheri.

This is a famous modern recension of a traditional raga that I've heard (I wasn't taught) is associated with expansiveness, the quality of space. Admittedly, that's pretty vague. If you can choose where to "expand", you can end up using it as a scale.

[bradrn]

Yes, raga Abheri.

This is a famous modern recension of a traditional raga that I've heard (I wasn't taught) is associated with expansiveness, the quality of space. Admittedly, that's pretty vague. If you can choose where to "expand", you can end up using it as a scale.

To me this does sound like ‘few emotional connotations’.

[rotting bones]

This is an example of overemphasizing the unity of Western music. Before printed music, there was a good deal of improvisation; and as you admit yourself, improvisation flourished in popular music. And it's just not true that classical music forbids improvisation. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and Liszt were great improvisers. This claim is like saying that "Western Literature" means 19th century French.

Actually, I would go farther. Classical improvisation was alive long after printing. When classical music was a living tradition instead of being the province of elite institutions, performers were expected to improvise on Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. This ended only when audiences started expecting to hear the "authentic" works of geniuses. Some maestros might have been considered to be geniuses, but the composers of classical music weren't worshipped as gods. Bach wasn't even considered to be a genius composer in his lifetime, only a genius performer. The worst reputation within Western Classical music had to have been held by Bel Canto operas like The Barber of Seville. Coinciding with the rise of capitalism, composers were churning out score sheets in days, often plagiarizing themselves. The embalming of classical music only happened after the death of Verdi in the early 20th century.

[rotting bones]

To me this does sound like ‘few emotional connotations’.

I think it was originally supposed to be a sense of grandeur. The most exaggerated example I can think of is the opening of 2001, but probably with meadows or valleys or something.