United States Politics Thread 47

[zompist]

The contrast between Zompist proclaiming hope about our situation and everything I am reading elsewhere feels ever more jarring.

BREAKING NEWS: FAMOUS DOOMSCROLLER FINDS ONLY BAD NEWS WHILE DOOMSCROLLING !

If you're referring to my blog post, the message is not "hope", it's RESIST.

Doomscrolling is useless. Despair is useless. Less than useless: it is literally what the fascists want you to feel. Why do you give them what they want?

What you need is therapy, but in a pinch punk rock will do. Your attitude should start with "fuck the fascists" and move into "what can I do to help?"

Or if you can't bring yourself to get off the couch, at least stop shitting on the people who are willing to confront the fascists.

[malloc]

If you're referring to my blog post, the message is not "hope", it's RESIST.

Sure, but I fear we are rapidly approaching an age where resistance has become unfeasible for various reasons. Sufficiently pervasive and well-crafted propaganda can gaslight even the toughest minds. Increasingly dense surveillance will make it impossible for dissidents to avoid capture. If nothing else, one well-placed fusillade can eliminate an entire throng of protesters. China demonstrates all too well that dictatorship can persist for generations using tactics like these.

Trump could simply find some excuse to ban the Democratic party and expel its members from office, for instance declaring them terrorists or foreign agents or something. If any courts objected, he could simply arrest the judges. Realistically what could any of us do to fight that?

[keenir]

If you're referring to my blog post, the message is not "hope", it's RESIST.

Sure, but I fear we are rapidly approaching an age where resistance has become unfeasible for various reasons.

yeah, the year 2525, if you believe the song.

surveillance will make it impossible for dissidents to avoid capture. If nothing else, one well-placed fusillade can eliminate an entire throng of protesters. China demonstrates all too well that dictatorship can persist for generations using tactics like these.

I think China actually pays their cheerleaders, while the US doesn't; if you want to make a career of this shite, move there.

Trump could simply find some excuse to ban the Democratic party and expel its members from office, for instance declaring them terrorists or foreign agents or something. If any courts objected, he could simply arrest the judges. Realistically what could any of us do to fight that?

to quote the great Ambassador Londo Mollari, "clearly you have not been paying attention!"

[alice]

I am reminded of the scene with the "Dwarfs" in the barn near the end of The Last Battle.

[keenir]

i forgot something...

Increasingly dense surveillance will make it impossible for dissidents to avoid capture.

if that were true, England (as an example off the top of my head) would have no criminals, at least none outside of prison, and China would not be having trouble with the Turks or Tibetans.

If nothing else, one well-placed fusillade can eliminate an entire throng of protesters.

weird how the number of protesters keeps increasing, then...even without your martyr-creating suggestion.

Trump could simply find some excuse to ban the Democratic party and expel its members from office, for instance declaring them terrorists or foreign agents or something.

given that some of Trump's advisors are fans of No True Scotsman, he might be considering that, yes - but given he's bleeding (hemmoraging) support even from MAGA and Republicans, he couldn't actually do that. ANY of that.

If any courts objected, he could simply arrest the judges

...because that works soooo well.

[malloc]

if that were true, England (as an example off the top of my head) would have no criminals, at least none outside of prison, and China would not be having trouble with the Turks or Tibetans.

Except that neither of those groups are anywhere close to breaking free of China nor do they pose any credible threat to the Chinese government. Currently the CCP has an invincible grip on political power and nothing will change that for the foreseeable future. Trump and his successors simply need to copy the tactics and technologies they use to achieve similar success.

weird how the number of protesters keeps increasing, then...even without your martyr-creating suggestion.

Liberals don't really think in terms of martyrdom. They are not warriors by nature, seeking glorious death or valorizing physical courage, but rather cautious pragmatists. Once it becomes clear that fighting back in any way will get them killed, they will never dare protest.

given that some of Trump's advisors are fans of No True Scotsman, he might be considering that, yes - but given he's bleeding (hemmoraging) support even from MAGA and Republicans, he couldn't actually do that. ANY of that.

Is he though? The polls I have seen consistently put his approval rating in the mid-forties over the past few months. He may not have overwhelming support, but he certainly has more than Biden managed to achieve. That near majority of support includes millions of heavily armed zealots who will back even his most outrageous actions.

If any courts objected, he could simply arrest the judges

...because that works soooo well.

He would only need to jail several thousand elected officials and judges and he would have a clear shot to implement whatever policies he wants at every level of government.

[zompist]

Is he though? The polls I have seen consistently put his approval rating in the mid-forties over the past few months. He may not have overwhelming support, but he certainly has more than Biden managed to achieve.

Meanwhile, in this timeline

[keenir]

if that were true, England (as an example off the top of my head) would have no criminals, at least none outside of prison, and China would not be having trouble with the Turks or Tibetans.

Except that neither of those groups are anywhere close to breaking free of China nor do they pose any credible threat to the Chinese government.

I wasn't addressing a comment about threats or breaking free - I was answering your statement about survailance. doesn't it hurt moving the goalposts so much?

Currently the CCP has an invincible grip on political power and nothing will change that for the foreseeable future. Trump and his successors simply need to copy the tactics and technologies they use to achieve similar success.

given how fast Trump chickens out of every game of chicken, thats not gonna happen.

weird how the number of protesters keeps increasing, then...even without your martyr-creating suggestion.

Liberals don't really think in terms of martyrdom. They are not warriors by nature, seeking glorious death or valorizing physical courage, but rather cautious pragmatists. Once it becomes clear that fighting back in any way will get them killed, they will never dare protest.

aw, thats adorable that you think liberals are the only people brave enough - or with nothing left to lose - to protest against Trump.

pretty much everything has its martyrs. I'm not sure you understand how the concept works, if you think it only involves glorious death and physical courage.

given that some of Trump's advisors are fans of No True Scotsman, he might be considering that, yes - but given he's bleeding (hemmoraging) support even from MAGA and Republicans, he couldn't actually do that. ANY of that.

Is he though? The polls I have seen

given your incessant doomscrolling, thats not a statistic I'm inclined to believe.

consistently put his approval rating in the mid-forties over the past few months. He may not have overwhelming support, but he certainly has more than Biden managed to achieve. That near majority of support includes millions of heavily armed zealots who will back even his most outrageous actions.

you mean the zealots screaming for him to stop hurting them?

If any courts objected, he could simply arrest the judges

...because that works soooo well.

He would only need to jail several thousand elected officials and judges and he would have a clear shot to implement whatever policies he wants at every level of government.[/quote]

man, you're more delusional than I thought.
{nevermind that even the Trump-appointed judges are stopping him at every opportunity}

[jcb]

Sufficiently pervasive and well-crafted propaganda can gaslight even the toughest minds.

It's as if you think people IRL are cretins like in the movie "Idiocracy".
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqIJZeeXEc

[keenir]

Sufficiently pervasive and well-crafted propaganda can gaslight even the toughest minds.

It's as if you think people IRL are cretins like in the movie "Idiocracy".
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqIJZeeXEc

sadly, Trump isn't the only person who thinks movies document reality.

[malloc]

Meanwhile the MAGA regime is already jailing politicians and planning on suspending habeas corpus. Realistically how does one fight a regime that thinks nothing of jailing or deporting anyone it wants?

[keenir]

Meanwhile the MAGA regime is already jailing politicians and planning on suspending habeas corpus.

hard to suspend it, when he doesn't know what it is - which goes for more than just the corpus.

Realistically how does one fight a regime that thinks nothing of jailing or deporting anyone it wants?

if you were doing more than doomscrolling, you'd already have seen the many answers to this in the RL news.

[malloc]

hard to suspend it, when he doesn't know what it is - which goes for more than just the corpus.

He doesn't have to know what it means to suspend it, anymore than he had to understand science to suspend funding to scientific institutions. If he wants habeas corpus gone, it will disappear, regardless of whether he understands the implications of that decision or the legal intricacies involved.

if you were doing more than doomscrolling, you'd already have seen the many answers to this in the RL news.

What you call doomscrolling is simply reading any medium outside this webforum. The contrast between this forum and everywhere else is really jarring.

[keenir]

hard to suspend it, when he doesn't know what it is - which goes for more than just the corpus.

He doesn't have to know what it means to suspend it, anymore than he had to understand science to suspend funding to scientific institutions. If he wants habeas corpus gone, it will disappear,

you mean like how if he wants effective tariffs making the US powerful, it'll happen regardless of if he understands how tariffs work? yeah nah.

regardless of whether he understands the implications of that decision or the legal intricacies involved.

Malloc, if you'd been watching any news angencies' programs that weren't about how awesome and powerful and virile and competant Trump is, you'd have noticed that Trump can't do anything for more than a week before he walks it back or just abandons it.

if you were doing more than doomscrolling, you'd already have seen the many answers to this in the RL news.

What you call doomscrolling is simply reading any medium outside this webforum. The contrast between this forum and everywhere else is really jarring.

and yet this forum keeps showing you links to non-forum news articles and other media which show Trump coming up short in one or more ways...and yet it never seems to penetrate your mind or awareness or any other part of you.

so I don't know if every time we give you a link, you leap away from your computer, screaming that we're trying to give you cooties, or you have some other reason why you repeatedly fail to be aware of even things that we point out to you.

[keenir]

What you call doomscrolling is simply reading any medium outside this webforum. The contrast between this forum and everywhere else is really jarring.

Look, Malloc, if you forget where the links were, which posts have them - thats one thing, thats perfectly understandable for people with short term memories (I'm one such person)...maybe we could put copies of the links in the first page of this thread, if you think it would help. I'd be willing to do that for links I provide.

But if you're telling us that there are no articles outside of this forum, nowhere to see good news - and if your reason for that, is that you are actively ignoring the links...thats a different matter.

[zompist]

But if you're telling us that there are no articles outside of this forum, nowhere to see good news - and if your reason for that, is that you are actively ignoring the links...thats a different matter.

Of course there's good news, malloc is just unable to accept anything but doom.

As a test, I looked at Politico's main page right now. There's lots of bad stuff of course. But here are some of the positives. (These are my summaries, not the headlines.)

ICE released Newark mayor Ras Baraka
Rumeya Ozturk was released after major protests
An NC Republican judge finally abandoned his attempt to undo his election loss
The GOP seems to be walking back the threat to suspend habeas corpus
European leaders win Trump’s support to pressure Putin on unconditional ceasefire *
A federal judge blocked firings at HHS
Another judge blocked more firings, as not having followed the legal requirements
A major trade organization (Consumer Technology Association) is lobbying against the tariffs

* To be taken with a load of salt, but it's an improvement over early attempts to bully Ukraine.

Oh, and essential reading these days, especially for doomers who think Republican support is growing, is r/LeopardsAteMyFace.

[alice]

What you call doomscrolling is simply reading any medium outside this webforum. The contrast between this forum and everywhere else is really jarring.

for values of "any" and "everywhere else"

[malloc]

You have to consider the current trajectory of the situation, though. Reactionaries are gaining ground all across the world and especially with younger people. They clearly have the momentum and will only get stronger if present trends continue. You need to show me some good reasons to believe that these trends will not continue.

[zompist]

You need to show me some good reasons to believe that these trends will not continue.

No, we don't. You have to start listening to other people for once in your life.

You obviously think you're smarter than anyone else, but by your own reckoning, what has this attitude gotten you? Despair and endless pointless arguments. Remember when you were going to be kicked out of your apartment, or lose your job, or get thrown in jail? None of that happened: we were right and you were wrong. Your catastrophism is making you miserable.

If you refuse to resist the fash, then do some conlangs or something. It's up to you to make something of your life, not us.

[malloc]

If you refuse to resist the fash, then do some conlangs or something. It's up to you to make something of your life, not us.

What does resistance even mean here, though? The problem is that the reactionaries have an overwhelming advantage in everything from funding to propaganda to firepower and I can't see any plausible way of closing any of those gaps. We would need to raise billions of dollars, deplatform hundreds of influential pundits, and more.